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China: Our Worst Enemy

Salvaged from archive These posts were salvaged from the web archive of the original FileCabi forum (2007–2008). Usernames are as they were then and aren’t linked to today’s accounts.

mousewallratSalvaged from archive4 Jan 2010, 16:59
Yes, boys and girls...keep buying that cheap Chinese shit at WalMart. The US and China: One Side is Losing, the Other is Winning By James Petras January 03, 2010 -- Asian capitalism, notably China and South Korea are competing with the US for global power. Asian global power is driven by dynamic economic growth, while the US pursues a strategy of military-driven empire building. One Day's Read of the Financial Times Even a cursory read of a single issue of the Financial Times (December 28, 2009) illustrates the divergent strategies toward empire building. On page one, the lead article on the US is on its expanding military conflicts and its 'war on terror', entitled "Obama Demands Review of Terror List". In contrast, there are two page-one articles on China, which describe China's launching of the world's fastest long-distance passenger train service and China's decision to maintain its currency pegged to the US dollar as a mechanism to promote its robust export sector. While Obama turns the US focus on a fourth battle front (Yemen) in the 'war on terror' (after Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan), the Financial Times reports on the same page that a South Korean consortium has won a $20.4 billion dollar contract to develop civilian nuclear power plants for the United Arab Emirates, beating its US and European competitors. On page two of the FT there is a longer article elaborating on the new Chinese rail system, highlighting its superiority over the US rail service: The Chinese ultra-modern train takes passengers between two major cities, 1,100 kilometers, in less than 3 hours whereas the US Amtrack 'Express' takes 3 ½ hours to cover 300 kilometers between Boston and New York. While the US passenger rail system deteriorates from lack of investment and maintenance, China has spent $17 billion dollars constructing its express line. China plans to construct 18,000 kilometers of new track for its ultra-modern system by 2012, while the US will spend an equivalent amount in financing its 'military surge' in Afghanistan and Pakistan, as well as opening a new war front in Yemen. China builds a transport system linking producers and labor markets from the interior provinces with the manufacturing centers and ports on the coast, while on page 4 the Financial Times describes how the US is welded to its policy of confronting the 'Islamist threat' with an endless 'war on terror'. The decades-long wars and occupations of Moslem countries have diverted hundreds of billions of dollars of public funds to a militarist policy with no benefit to the US, while China modernizes its civilian economy. While the White House and Congress subsidize and pander to the militarist-colonial state of Israel with its insignificant resource base and market, alienating 1.5 billion Moslems (Financial Times - page 7), China's gross domestic product (GDP) grew 10 fold over the past 26 years (FT - page 9). While the US allocated over $1.4 trillion dollars to Wall Street and the military, increasing the fiscal and current account deficits, doubling unemployment and perpetuating the recession (FT - page 12), the Chinese government releases a stimulus package directed at its domestic manufacturing and construction sectors, leading to an 8% growth in GDP, a significant reduction of unemployment and 're-igniting linked economies' in Asia, Latin America and Africa (also on page 12). While the US was spending time, resources and personnel in running 'elections' for its corrupt clients in Afghanistan and Iraq, and participating in pointless mediations between its intransigent Israeli partner and its impotent Palestinian client, the South Korean government backed a consortium headed by the Korea Electric Power Corporation in its successful bid on the $20.4 billion dollar nuclear power deal, opening the way for other billion-dollar contracts in the region (FT - page 13). While the US was spending over $60 billion dollars on internal policing and multiplying the number and size of its 'homeland' security agencies in pursuit of potential 'terrorists', China was investing $25 billion dollars in 'cementing its energy trading relations' with Russia (FT - page 3). The story told by the articles and headlines in a single day's issue of the Financial Times reflects a deeper reality, one that illustrates the great divide in the world today. The Asian countries, led by China, are reaching world power status on the basis of their massive domestic and foreign investments in manufacturing, transportation, technology and mining and mineral processing. In contrast, the US is a declining world power with a deteriorating society resulting from its military-driven empire building and its financial-speculative centered economy:
mousewallratSalvaged from archive4 Jan 2010, 17:04
1. Washington pursues minor military clients in Asia; while China expands its trading and investment agreements with major economic partners - Russia, Japan, South Korea and elsewhere. 2. Washington drains the domestic economy to finance overseas wars. China extracts minerals and energy resources to create its domestic job market in manufacturing. 3. The US invests in military technology to target local insurgents challenging US client regimes; China invests in civilian technology to create competitive exports. 4. China begins to restructure its economy toward developing the country's interior and allocates greater social spending to redress its gross imbalances and inequalities while the US rescues and reinforces the parasitical financial sector, which plundered industries (strips assets via mergers and acquisitions) and speculates on financial objectives with no impact on employment, productivity or competitiveness. 5. The US multiplies wars and troop build-ups in the Middle East, South Asia, the Horn of Africa and Caribbean; China provides investments and loans of over $25 billion dollars in building infrastructure, mineral extraction, energy production and assembly plants in Africa. 6. China signs multi-billion dollar trade and investment agreements with Iran, Venezuela, Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Peru and Bolivia, securing access to strategic energy, mineral and agricultural resources; Washington provides $6 billion in military aid to Colombia, secures seven military bases from President Uribe (to threaten Venezuela), backs a military coup in tiny Honduras and denounces Brazil and Bolivia for diversifying its economic ties with Iran. 7. China increases economic relations with dynamic Latin American economies, incorporating over 80% of the continent's population; the US partners with the failed state of Mexico, which has the worst economic performance in the hemisphere and where powerful drug cartels control wide regions and penetrate deep into the state apparatus. Conclusion China is not an exceptional capitalist country. Under Chinese capitalism, labor is exploited; inequalities in wealth and access to services are rampant; peasant-farmers are displaced by mega-dam projects and Chinese companies recklessly extract minerals and other natural resources in the Third World. However, China has created scores of millions of manufacturing jobs, reduced poverty faster and for more people in the shortest time span in history. Its banks mostly finance production. China doesn't bomb, invade or ravage other countries. In contrast, US capitalism has been harnessed to a monstrous global military machine that drains the domestic economy and lowers the domestic standard of living in order to fund its never-ending foreign wars. Finance, real estate and commercial capital undermine the manufacturing sector, drawing profits from speculation and cheap imports. China invests in petroleum-rich countries; the US attacks them. China sells plates and bowls for Afghan wedding feasts; US drone aircraft bomb the celebrations. China invests in extractive industries, but, unlike European colonialists, it builds railroads, ports, airfields and provides easy credit. China does not finance and arm ethnic wars and 'color rebellions' like the US CIA. China self-finances its own growth, trade and transportation system; the US sinks under a multi trillion dollar debt to finance its endless wars, bail out its Wall Street banks and prop up other non-productive sectors while many millions remain without jobs. China will grow and exercise power through the market; the US will engage in endless wars on its road to bankruptcy and internal decay. China's diversified growth is linked to dynamic economic partners; US militarism has tied itself to narco-states, warlord regimes, the overseers of banana republics and the last and worst bona fide racist colonial regime, Israel. China entices the world's consumers. US global wars provoke terrorists here and abroad. China may encounter crises and even workers rebellions, but it has the economic resources to accommodate them. The US is in crisis and may face domestic rebellion, but it has depleted its credit and its factories are all abroad and its overseas bases and military installations are liabilities, not assets. There are fewer factories in the US to re-employ its desperate workers: A social upheaval could see the American workers occupying the empty shells of its former factories. To become a 'normal state' we have to start all over: Close all investment banks and military bases abroad and return to America. We have to begin the long march toward rebuilding industry to serve our domestic needs, to living within our own natural environment and forsake empire building in favor of constructing a democratic socialist republic. When will we pick up the Financial Times or any other daily and read about our own high-speed rail line carrying American passengers from New York to Boston in less than one hour? When will our own factories supply our hardware stores? When will we build wind, solar and ocean-based energy generators? When will we abandon our military bases and let the world's warlords, drug traffickers and terrorists face the justice of their own people? Will we ever read about these in the Financial Times? In China, it all started with a revolution... http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn278/mousewallrat/chi…
TillySalvaged from archive4 Jan 2010, 17:08
The US and China: Oh, it's on now! Two nations on the opposite sides of the spectrum, one on one! One Side is Losing, Wait, if one side is losing, what about the other side? :think: the Other is Winning Oh, ok. Thanks for putting that together. :D
mousewallratSalvaged from archive4 Jan 2010, 17:12
Nice to know you made it through the headlines before the tl;dr set in...
MontysDoubleSalvaged from archive4 Jan 2010, 17:44
Interesting piece. One thing that strikes me: How does any of this make China the USA's 'enemy'? China and USA can't even be said to be competitors, because they're playing different roles: Client vs vendor, world's policeman (defender of democracy) vs happy spreader of oh-so-benevolent railways, highways and ports to sub-Saharan Africa in return for a few trifling mineral concessions extracted, of course, in the most high tech, cleanest and safest (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8371789.stm) manner possible in the 21st century... China's growth is largely driven by American consumption and her output has undoubtedly increased the standard of living there. Business interests in China and elsewhere probably see the expansion of lawful, accountable democracy as the enemy: What CEO shaving a few percent off the bottom line by polluting wouldn't quail at the thought of not being able to bribe the local governor to make the problem go away, if their pollution is drawing any heat from the local authority at all... Good post MWR. :thumb:
JACKASS2010Salvaged from archive4 Jan 2010, 18:13
no. just fucking no! what the fuck do you care? you will be fucking dead and rotting before any of this bullshit come close to affecting you. go on, go to your next statement. ITS ALL OBAMA'S FAULT. i fucking know thats your endgame. no-one gives a fuck cos we'll all be fucking dead by the time anything decent and therefore lulzy occurs. fuck the fuck right off.
TillySalvaged from archive4 Jan 2010, 18:20
Nice to know you made it through the headlines before the tl;dr set in... Well I don't know how you want anyone to respond over points on how China's socialist policies outweigh America's capitalist policies, especially considering your outspoken anti-socialist standpoints. Is this a joke? Everyone knows that limited government involvement in corporate business is what makes American capitalism American capitalism. Are we supposed to take cues from Chinese government for America government to have a large say in the free market? If that's not what you're suggesting, then this entire article has no point. Try to find another way to call Obama a socialist Hitler (which I hope you realize is a huge oxymoron).
MCMXCIISalvaged from archive4 Jan 2010, 18:22
China may be growing, but there is no need of setting labels all over the place. China still has nothing on the U.S in terms of quality manufacture, and both need each other, in the sense that without the States, the entire world economy would be in trouble. Trouble that even China can't bypass (deprives them of a suitable market for their exports). Now they may be rising to become a significant player on the international scene, but most of China is still undeveloped and it will take a long time before they are on the level of the EU or the U.S. By that time, liberal ideas may have grown to become dominant, in which case China will be an ally and partner rather than a threat. tl;dr -> anything is possible, no need to label China as an enemy.
JACKASS2010Salvaged from archive4 Jan 2010, 18:28
lol like i said, endgame= anti obama whinge. fuck off.
mousewallratSalvaged from archive4 Jan 2010, 20:35
Well I don't know how you want anyone to respond over points on how China's socialist policies outweigh America's capitalist policies, especially considering your outspoken anti-socialist standpoints. Is this a joke? Everyone knows that limited government involvement in corporate business is what makes American capitalism American capitalism. Are we supposed to take cues from Chinese government for America government to have a large say in the free market? If that's not what you're suggesting, then this entire article has no point. Try to find another way to call Obama a socialist Hitler (which I hope you realize is a huge oxymoron). No, not a joke...I want people to have a better view of the long term goals of China and our place in the world. Did you really study the chart at the bottom? If you do a bit of research on China's military buildup, and their stated goal of being the next Superpower, you can only conclude their buildup is to fight us. China has more women under arms than we have men and women. Of course, they've also said that they won't have to...they can win financially. This post was just to reflect that. MOst people just think that buying Chinese is good for the economy, and helps the US consumer. Like having illegal aliens here it's a net loss for the US. We lose the jobs/taxes, etc. that would have come from having a manufacturing base here. And Jackass, you're right. A yappy little doggy, but correct. It's Obamas fault. And Bush 1&2, Clinton, all the way back to Nixon. Allowing China/India/Japan to dump products on our markets at below cost, in order to kill our industries, (as Japan and China both did, if I remember correctly), is in a way treasonous. Look at all of the companies in WWII that built our war machine; FOrd made tanks, Singer made guns (a really cool 1911 A1 .45 pistol), and so on. If we lose these idustries, who will rearm us in a time of need? Japan? China? UAE?
mousewallratSalvaged from archive4 Jan 2010, 20:59
We will make every effort with utmost sincerity to achieve a peaceful reunification of the country. Hu Jintao (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/h/hujintao177401… We will never allow anybody to separate Taiwan from China. Hu Jintao (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/h/hujintao177402… We have a treaty to militarily defend Taiwan. Taiwan is an independent sovereign country. Chen Shui-bian (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/c/chenshuib21695… (Disgraced Taiwanese politician, once Pres. of China, then jailed) Free nations of the world cannot allow Taiwan, a beacon of democracy, to be subdued by an authoritarian China. Nick Lampson (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/n/nicklampso3503… (D)Senator from Texas Our policy for the last many years has been to deter the Chinese government in Beijing from ever coming into the position where they thought they had enough leverage over the U.S. to cross the Straits of Taiwan. Bob Filner (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/b/bobfilner31984… (D) Senator from Ca. When China owns so much of our debt, and has so much leverage, they could do it today. We would let Taiwan fall in a heartbeat. Ultimately, China may use force to push for unification with Taiwan, a scenario we all must work to prevent. Michael K. Simpson (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/m/michaelks24886… We ask them to remove the missiles deployed against Taiwan, give up their military threat, and instead let us together open the door to cross-Strait peaceful and stable dialogue and negotiations. Chen Shui-bian (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/c/chenshuib21694… I'm just posting this to show that China is not our friend. Taiwan is only one issue that could cause trouble with the US. Remember Tibet? Do you recall how they were put down/slaughtered? Korea? 1950 ring a bell? We killed thousands of Chinese troops during that war. They went to war with us, but we never declared war on them.
mousewallratSalvaged from archive4 Jan 2010, 21:13
I went from here to my next news site, and Surprise! found this: More News »While China has talked up its recent progress in stamping out copyright piracy, the market for fake iPhones and bootleg DVDs still flourishes, and its trading partners say it could do better. Late last month, the United States -- consistently critical of Beijing's failure to stop the illicit production of U.S. brands -- issued an annual report saying piracy in the Asian giant remained at "unacceptably high levels." Analysts say despite official crackdowns and successful prosecutions, graft and weak policing means factories continue to churn out fake goods, costing foreign and domestic firms billions of dollars in lost revenue. "Local protectionism and government corruption are the real issue," Daniel Chow, a professor at the Ohio State University College of Law, said. "The central government is probably sincere but enforcement occurs at the local level, and local governments have a direct and indirect interest in protecting counterfeiting, which is important to the local economy." China's counterfeit and piracy market is the biggest in the world and employs millions of factory workers, distributors and shop assistants across the vast country of 1.3 billion. Fake products are readily available in stores and on the Internet in China, as well as in overseas markets from New York to Sydney, at a fraction of the cost for the real thing. "Avatar" is smashing box office records in North America but can be bought for about a dollar in Beijing shops. Cheap copies of Apple's iPhone were available in China long before the smartphone was officially launched in 2009. "In China, you can get enforcement but no deterrence," said Chow. "You can easily get a raid but there are no consequences to the counterfeiter, who usually pays a light fine and is back in business in two to three weeks." In his annual report to Congress before Christmas, U.S. Trade Representative Ron Kirk -- a key member of U.S. President Barack Obama's delegation for his first official visit to China in November -- was damning. "Despite repeated anti-piracy campaigns in China and an increasing number of civil IPR cases in Chinese courts, counterfeiting and piracy remain at unacceptably high levels and continue to cause serious harm to U.S. businesses across many sectors of the economy," Kirk said. Kirk's comments followed a decision by the U.S. Congressional International Anti-Piracy Caucus to place China among the top five countries on its "International Piracy Watch List" for 2009. But Beijing says it has made "notable progress" in the war on Internet piracy and copyright infringement, state media reported last month, citing an official from the National Copyright Administration of China. Since August, Beijing has investigated more than 500 Internet copyright infringements, closed hundreds of illegal websites and fined those involved in online piracy 1.28 million yuan (US$187,500), the China Daily said. Foreign companies have also been targeted. A Chinese firm successfully sued Microsoft Corp. for infringing its intellectual property rights by including certain fonts in its operating systems. A major hurdle facing Beijing in its battle against counterfeits is local government officials, who are determined to protect jobs and maintain fast economic growth -- seen as crucial for their own career advancement. "If the local government cracks down on counterfeiting, millions of jobs will be lost, not just in counterfeiting but in legitimate industries that support counterfeiting and millions in tax revenue," Chow said. Sounds friendly to me...not.
TillySalvaged from archive4 Jan 2010, 22:04
No, not a joke...I want people to have a better view of the long term goals of China and our place in the world. Did you really study the chart at the bottom? If you do a bit of research on China's military buildup, and their stated goal of being the next Superpower, you can only conclude their buildup is to fight us. China has more women under arms than we have men and women. Ok, why does the US have nuclear weapons? Is it to bomb other countries, or is it meant as a deterrent? Of course, they've also said that they won't have to...they can win financially. This post was just to reflect that. MOst people just think that buying Chinese is good for the economy, and helps the US consumer. Like having illegal aliens here it's a net loss for the US. We lose the jobs/taxes, etc. that would have come from having a manufacturing base here. So for a country besides the US to build their economy, it must be to one up the US? Fuck economic prosperity, it's just to fuck the US up the ass. And Jackass, you're right. A yappy little doggy, but correct. It's Obamas fault. And Bush 1&2, Clinton, all the way back to Nixon. Allowing China/India/Japan to dump products on our markets at below cost, in order to kill our industries, (as Japan and China both did, if I remember correctly), is in a way treasonous. Look at all of the companies in WWII that built our war machine; FOrd made tanks, Singer made guns (a really cool 1911 A1 .45 pistol), and so on. If we lose these idustries, who will rearm us in a time of need? Japan? China? UAE? To do otherwise is called socialism... So it was all their fault for encouraging an economic system that has been America's foundation since America was born? Capitalism noun an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations, esp. as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth. My point is who gives a fuck about China? The US will be the US, and under no circumstance should we let outside influences dictate the way we do things. Ironically, accomplishing that is to continue global trade, as once again, it's an economic system that has been America's foundation since America was born.
TillySalvaged from archive4 Jan 2010, 22:11
I went from here to my next news site, and Surprise! found this: More News »While China has talked up its recent progress in stamping out copyright piracy, the market for fake iPhones and bootleg DVDs still flourishes, and its trading partners say it could do better. Late last month, the United States -- consistently critical of Beijing's failure to stop the illicit production of U.S. brands -- issued an annual report saying piracy in the Asian giant remained at "unacceptably high levels." Analysts say despite official crackdowns and successful prosecutions, graft and weak policing means factories continue to churn out fake goods, costing foreign and domestic firms billions of dollars in lost revenue. "Local protectionism and government corruption are the real issue," Daniel Chow, a professor at the Ohio State University College of Law, said. "The central government is probably sincere but enforcement occurs at the local level, and local governments have a direct and indirect interest in protecting counterfeiting, which is important to the local economy." China's counterfeit and piracy market is the biggest in the world and employs millions of factory workers, distributors and shop assistants across the vast country of 1.3 billion. Fake products are readily available in stores and on the Internet in China, as well as in overseas markets from New York to Sydney, at a fraction of the cost for the real thing. "Avatar" is smashing box office records in North America but can be bought for about a dollar in Beijing shops. Cheap copies of Apple's iPhone were available in China long before the smartphone was officially launched in 2009. "In China, you can get enforcement but no deterrence," said Chow. "You can easily get a raid but there are no consequences to the counterfeiter, who usually pays a light fine and is back in business in two to three weeks." In his annual report to Congress before Christmas, U.S. Trade Representative Ron Kirk -- a key member of U.S. President Barack Obama's delegation for his first official visit to China in November -- was damning. "Despite repeated anti-piracy campaigns in China and an increasing number of civil IPR cases in Chinese courts, counterfeiting and piracy remain at unacceptably high levels and continue to cause serious harm to U.S. businesses across many sectors of the economy," Kirk said. Kirk's comments followed a decision by the U.S. Congressional International Anti-Piracy Caucus to place China among the top five countries on its "International Piracy Watch List" for 2009. But Beijing says it has made "notable progress" in the war on Internet piracy and copyright infringement, state media reported last month, citing an official from the National Copyright Administration of China. Since August, Beijing has investigated more than 500 Internet copyright infringements, closed hundreds of illegal websites and fined those involved in online piracy 1.28 million yuan (US$187,500), the China Daily said. Foreign companies have also been targeted. A Chinese firm successfully sued Microsoft Corp. for infringing its intellectual property rights by including certain fonts in its operating systems. A major hurdle facing Beijing in its battle against counterfeits is local government officials, who are determined to protect jobs and maintain fast economic growth -- seen as crucial for their own career advancement. "If the local government cracks down on counterfeiting, millions of jobs will be lost, not just in counterfeiting but in legitimate industries that support counterfeiting and millions in tax revenue," Chow said. Sounds friendly to me...not. Wow...I don't think I could possibly care any less about any of these Chinese issues. I dare you to find anyone on this forum who could say otherwise.
mousewallratSalvaged from archive4 Jan 2010, 22:38
Ok, why does the US have nuclear weapons? Is it to bomb other countries, or is it meant as a deterrent?Both. They are a weapon of last resort, or we would have used them in Korea. YOu ought to read about the human waves during the war. Read 'Breakout', by Martin Russ. It'll scare the shit out of you. My Dad was a Marine fighting in Korea, he still won't talk about it, 50 years later. They said that you could walk for a long way over the dead bodies of the Chinese/Koreans, and never touch the ground. So for a country besides the US to build their economy, it must be to one up the US? Fuck economic prosperity, it's just to fuck the US up the ass.ATH, you have to remember the Chinese have a 'long term' strategy. If they own our economy (which they certainly do), they own us. Do some research into their military builtup, and then you'll understand more. It's our boys that'll have to fight them if we go to war with them. Warfare doesn't require only bullets and bombs. If you break a countries economy, they cannot wage war effectively. The Chinese are in the position to do that to us, right now. Pentagon preps for economic warfare By EAMON JAVERS | 4/9/09 4:18 AM EST The Pentagon sponsors a war game that examines how hostile nations might seek to cripple the U.S. economy. Photo: AP The Pentagon sponsored a first-of-its-kind war game last month focused not on bullets and bombs — but on how hostile nations might seek to cripple the U.S. economy, a scenario made all the more real by the global financial crisis. The two-day event near Ft. Meade, Maryland, had all the earmarks of a regular war game. Participants sat along a V-shaped set of desks beneath an enormous wall of video monitors displaying economic data, according to the accounts of three participants. “It felt a little bit like Dr. Strangelove,” one person who was at the previously undisclosed exercise told POLITICO. But instead of military brass plotting America’s defense, it was hedge-fund managers, professors and executives from at least one investment bank, UBS – all invited by the Pentagon to play out global scenarios that could shift the balance of power between the world’s leading economies. Their efforts were carefully observed and recorded by uniformed military officers and members of the U.S. intelligence community. In the end, there was sobering news for the United States – the savviest economic warrior proved to be China, a growing economic power that strengthened its position the most over the course of the war-game. The United States remained the world’s largest economy but significantly degraded its standing in a series of financial skirmishes with Russia, participants said. See also The war game demonstrated that in post-Sept. 11 world, the Pentagon is thinking about a wide range of threats to America’s position in the world, including some that could come far from the battlefield. And it’s hardly science fiction. China recently shook the value of the dollar in global currency markets merely by questioning whether the recession put China’s $1 trillion in U.S. government bond holdings at risk – forcing President Barack Obama to issue a hasty defense of the dollar. “This was an example of the changing nature of conflict,” said Paul Bracken, a professor and expert in private equity at the Yale School of Management who attended the sessions. “The purpose of the game is not really to predict the future, but to discover the issues you need to be thinking about.” Several participants said the event had been in the planning stages well before the stock market crash of September, but the real-world market calamity was on the minds of many in the room. “It loomed large over what everybody was doing,” said Bracken. “Why would the military care about global capital flows at all?” asked another person who was there. “Because as the global financial crisis plays out, there could be real world consequences, including failed states. We’ve already seen riots in the United Kingdom and the Balkans.” The Office of the Secretary of Defense hosted the two-day event March 17 and 18 at the Warfare Analysis Laboratory in Laurel, MD. That facility, run by the Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory, typically hosts military officials planning intricate combat scenarios. A spokesperson for the Applied Physics Laboratory confirmed the event, and said it was the first purely economic war game the facility has hosted. All three participants said they had been told it was the first time the Pentagon hosted a purely economic war game. A Pentagon spokesman would say only that he was not aware of the exercise. To do otherwise is called socialism... So it was all their fault for encouraging an economic system that has been America's foundation since America was born?They have some Capitalist traits, but they're a Communist nation. Don't confuse the two. Hu is firmly in control. Also, they are using convicts and slave labor...that's not exactly 'encouraging an economic system that has been America's foundation since America was born'. Capitalism –noun an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations, esp. as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth. My point is who gives a fuck about China? The US will be the US, and under no circumstance should we let outside influences dictate the way we do things. Ironically, accomplishing that is to continue global trade, as once again, it's an economic system that has been America's foundation since America was born.But the problem is that the Globalists (Bush/Clinton, right on thru Obama) let the rest of the world control what we do! That's my biggest fucking point! Ever hear of the Kyoto Accords? GLobal Warming? They're both about GLobal Governance and diminishing American soveriegnty. Our Grand Country is giving up it's right to say 'No' to other governments, and doing it willingly. That's what hurts me...not that it's a Republican or Democrat doing it.
mousewallratSalvaged from archive4 Jan 2010, 23:06
Remember it's not just bullets and bombs; Sun-Tzu was Chinese. China’s cyber army is preparing to march on America, says Pentagon http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00… (© Corbis. All Rights Reserved) Tim Reid in Washington (http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web… Chinese military hackers have prepared a detailed plan to disable America’s aircraft battle carrier fleet with a devastating cyber attack, according to a Pentagon report obtained by The Times. The blueprint for such an assault, drawn up by two hackers working for the People’s Liberation Army (PLA), is part of an aggressive push by Beijing to achieve “electronic dominance” over each of its global rivals by 2050, particularly the US, Britain, Russia and South Korea. China’s ambitions extend to crippling an enemy’s financial, military and communications capabilities early in a conflict, according to military documents and generals’ speeches that are being analysed by US intelligence officials. Describing what is in effect a new arms race, a Pentagon assessment states that China’s military regards offensive computer operations as “critical to seize the initiative” in the first stage of a war. The plan to cripple the US aircraft carrier battle groups was authored by two PLA air force officials, Sun Yiming and Yang Liping. It also emerged this week that the Chinese military hacked into the US Defence Secretary’s computer system in June; have regularly penetrated computers in at least 10 Whitehall departments, including military files, and infiltrated German government systems this year. Cyber attacks by China have become so frequent and aggressive that President Bush, without referring directly to Beijing, said this week that “a lot of our systems are vulnerable to attack”. He indicated that he would raise the subject with Hu Jintao, the Chinese President, when they met in Sydney at the Apec summit. Mr Hu denied that China was responsible for the attack on Robert Gates, the US Defence Secretary. Larry M. Wortzel, the author of the US Army War College report, said: “The thing that should give us pause is that in many Chinese military manuals they identify the US as the country they are most likely to go to war with. They are moving very rapidly to master this new form of warfare.” The two PLA hackers produced a “virtual guidebook for electronic warfare and jamming” after studying dozens of US and Nato manuals on military tactics, according to the document. The Pentagon logged more than 79,000 attempted intrusions in 2005. About 1,300 were successful, including the penetration of computers linked to the Army’s 101st and 82nd Airborne Divisions and the 4th Infantry Division. In August and September of that year Chinese hackers penetrated US State Department computers in several parts of the world. Hundreds of computers had to be replaced or taken offline for months. Chinese hackers also disrupted the US Naval War College’s network in November, forcing the college to shut down its computer systems for several weeks. The Pentagon uses more than 5 million computers on 100,000 networks in 65 countries. Jim Melnick, a recently retired Pentagon computer network analyst, told The Times that the Chinese military holds hacking competitions to identify and recruit talented members for its cyber army. He described a competition held two years ago in Sichuan province, southwest China. The winner now uses a cyber nom de guerre, Wicked Rose. He went on to set up a hacking business that penetrated computers at a defence contractor for US aerospace. Mr Melnick said that the PLA probably outsourced its hacking efforts to such individuals. “These guys are very good,” he said. “We don’t know for sure that Wicked Rose and people like him work for the PLA. But it seems logical. And it also allows the Chinese leadership to have plausible deniability.” In February a massive cyber attack on Estonia by Russian hackers demonstrated how potentially catastrophic a preemptive strike could be on a developed nation. Pro-Russian hackers attacked numerous sites to protest against the controversial removal in Estonia of a Russian memorial to victims of the Second World War. The attacks brought down government websites, a major bank and telephone networks. Linton Wells, the chief computer networks official at the Pentagon, said that the Estonia attacks “may well turn out to be a watershed in terms of widespread awareness of the vulnerability of modern society”. After the attacks, computer security experts from Nato, the EU, US and Israel arrived in the capital, Tallinn, to study its effects. Sami Saydjari, who has been working on cyber defence systems for the Pentagon since the 1980s, told Congress in testimony on April 25 that a mass cyber attack could leave 70 per cent of the US without electrical power for six months. He told The Times that all major nations – including China – were scrambling to defend against, and working out ways to cause, “maximum strategic damage” by taking out banking systems, power grids and communications networks. He said that there were at least a thousand attempted attacks every hour on American computers. “China is aggressive in this,” he said. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00142/ART… Programmed to attack Malware: a “Trojan horse” programme, which hides a “malicious code” behind an innocent document, can collect usernames and passwords for e-mail accounts. It can download programmes and relay attacks against other computers. An infected computer can be controlled by the attacker and directed to carry out functions normally available only to the system owner. Hacking: increasingly a method of attack used by countries determined to use electronic means to gain access to secrets. Government computers in Britain have a network intrusion detection system, which monitors traffic and alerts officials to “misuse or anomalous behaviour”. Botnets: compromised networks that an attacker can exploit. Deliberate programming errors in software can easily pass undetected. Attackers can exploit the errors to take control of a computer. Botnets can be used for stealing information or to collect credit card numbers by “sniffing” or logging the strokes of a victim’s keyboard. Keystroke loggers: they record the sequence of key strokes that a user types in. Logging devices can be fitted inside the computer itself. Denial of service attacks: overloading a computer system so that it can no longer function. This is the method allegedly used by the Russians to disrupt the Estonian government computers in May. Phishing and spoofing: designed to trick an organisation’s customers into imparting confidential information such as passwords, personal data or banking details. Those using this method impersonate a “trusted source” such as a bank or IT helpdesk to persuade the victim to hand over confidential information. (Michael Evans) If you're not afraid, you don't understand the situation.
Echo1Salvaged from archive4 Jan 2010, 23:13
what ever is gonna happen will happen whether im afraid or not. end. edit: fuck china
mousewallratSalvaged from archive4 Jan 2010, 23:16
Remember what I said about Economic Warfare? Computer System Under Attack Commerce Department Targeted; Hackers Traced to China By Alan Sipress Washington Post Staff Writer Friday, October 6, 2006 Hackers operating through Chinese Internet servers have launched a debilitating attack on the computer system of a sensitive Commerce Department bureau, forcing it to replace hundreds of workstations and block employees from regular use of the Internet for more than a month, Commerce officials said yesterday. The attack targeted the computers of the Bureau of Industry and Security, which is responsible for controlling U.S. exports of commodities, software and technology having both commercial and military uses. The bureau has stepped up its activity in regulating trade with China in recent years as the United States increased its exports of such dual-use items to the growing Chinese market. This marked the second time in recent months that U.S. officials confirmed that a major attack traced to China had succeeded in penetrating government computers. "Through established security procedures, BIS discovered a targeted effort to gain access to BIS user accounts," said Commerce Department spokesman Richard Mills. "We have no evidence that BIS data has been lost or compromised. " The significance of the attacks was underscored in a series of e-mails sent to BIS employees by acting Undersecretary of Commerce Mark Foulon since July, informing them of "a number of serious threats to the integrity of our systems and data." In an August e-mail, Foulon reported that the bureau had "identified several successful attempts to attack unattended BIS workstations during the overnight hours." Then, early last month, he wrote: "It has become clear that Internet access in itself is a vulnerability that we cannot mitigate. We have tried incremental steps and they have proven insufficient." A source familiar with the security breach said the hackers had penetrated the computers with a "rootkit" program, a stealthy form of software that allows attackers to mask their presence and then gain privileged access to the computer system. The attacks were traced to Web sites registered on Chinese Internet service providers, Commerce officials said. "We determined they were owned by the Chinese," a senior Commerce official said. He did not say who in China was responsible or whether officials had even been able to identify the culprits. Although bureau employees were informed of the problem in July, commerce officials declined to say when the attacks were discovered and how long they had been going on. Only over time did bureau officials realize the extent of the damage from the breach. "The more we learned, the more we did," the senior official said. Since Sept. 1, the bureau has blocked employees from accessing the Internet from their own computers. Instead, several separate computers unconnected to the BIS computer network have been set up so employees can try to continue carrying out their duties. Commerce officials have also decided they cannot salvage the workstations that employees had been using and instead will build an entirely new system for the bureau in the coming months with "clean hardware and clean software," the senior official said. Foulon told employees in late August that they hoped to replace all the bureau's workstations within three months. The official acknowledged that some of the emergency measures have made it more difficult for the bureau to communicate with other government agencies and the public, including companies that turn to BIS for export licenses. In July, the State Department confirmed that hackers in China had broken into its computers in Washington and overseas. Last year, U.S. officials reported that the Defense Department and other U.S. agencies were under relentless attack from unidentified computers in China. China has long been a focus of high-level attention at BIS and was the destination for the largest number of licenses approved by the bureau in 2004, according to the bureau's most recent annual report. In weighing applications for licenses, bureau officials seek to protect U.S. national security interests without hamstringing legitimate commercial trade. Commerce officials recently reported that they had taken significant steps to enhance computer security at the department, both by deploying new software and improving the management of the system. These steps came after the General Accounting Office (since renamed the Government Accountability Office) issued a scathing report five years ago, which concluded that "significant and pervasive computer security weaknesses place Department of Commerce systems at risk." The report found that outsiders could gain unauthorized access to the computer system and access confidential data. "Intruders could disrupt the operations of systems that are critical to the mission of the department," the report found.
TillySalvaged from archive4 Jan 2010, 23:37
You know what, I'm done. I'm not sorting through this abortion of fear mongering articles anymore. Enjoy being a crackpot.
SeamusSalvaged from archive5 Jan 2010, 04:30
Ah China def have a big say in world politics allright. That was proven at the last G8 summit. I didn't like how Obama and that gook left the conference and went to a secluded room together to have anus sex, but sure fuck it. It just proves that he is terrified of China and he did what was told of him.
MCMXCIISalvaged from archive5 Jan 2010, 05:38
We will make every effort with utmost sincerity to achieve a peaceful reunification of the country. Hu Jintao (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/h/hujintao177401… We will never allow anybody to separate Taiwan from China. Hu Jintao (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/h/hujintao177402… We have a treaty to militarily defend Taiwan. Taiwan is an independent sovereign country. Chen Shui-bian (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/c/chenshuib21695… (Disgraced Taiwanese politician, once Pres. of China, then jailed) Free nations of the world cannot allow Taiwan, a beacon of democracy, to be subdued by an authoritarian China. Nick Lampson (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/n/nicklampso3503… (D)Senator from Texas Our policy for the last many years has been to deter the Chinese government in Beijing from ever coming into the position where they thought they had enough leverage over the U.S. to cross the Straits of Taiwan. Bob Filner (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/b/bobfilner31984… (D) Senator from Ca. When China owns so much of our debt, and has so much leverage, they could do it today. We would let Taiwan fall in a heartbeat. Ultimately, China may use force to push for unification with Taiwan, a scenario we all must work to prevent. Michael K. Simpson (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/m/michaelks24886… We ask them to remove the missiles deployed against Taiwan, give up their military threat, and instead let us together open the door to cross-Strait peaceful and stable dialogue and negotiations. Chen Shui-bian (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/c/chenshuib21694… I'm just posting this to show that China is not our friend. Taiwan is only one issue that could cause trouble with the US. Remember Tibet? Do you recall how they were put down/slaughtered? Korea? 1950 ring a bell? We killed thousands of Chinese troops during that war. They went to war with us, but we never declared war on them. I would LOL so badly if the US and China start nuking each other, ensuring mutual destruction, over Tai-fucking-wan. :rofl:
SeamusSalvaged from archive5 Jan 2010, 05:41
They will never nuke each other. China might invade America. But there won't be any nuclear war.
MCMXCIISalvaged from archive5 Jan 2010, 05:47
They will never nuke each other. China might invade America. But there won't be any nuclear war. EDIT: I would LOL so hard if China and the US get in an all out bar brawl over Tai-fucking-wan! :rofl:
SeamusSalvaged from archive5 Jan 2010, 05:49
I was going to say in the last post, that gay thing that everyone does here. OICwatUDIDTHAR. But I found myself saying ''NO! I AM NOT GAY. So I didn't.
Supplemental PersonaSalvaged from archive5 Jan 2010, 08:58
The game has already been won and lost by the respective sides, the next wave of economic moves between the two will be China taking controlling stakes in publicly traded multinationals that most Americans view as American businesses, much like they worked their way into our biggest banks. We're insolvent and they save us while we sell ourselves. The game was lost quite a while ago, the epiphany, to some, is the only thing new.
mousewallratSalvaged from archive5 Jan 2010, 09:43
The game has already been won and lost by the respective sides, the next wave of economic moves between the two will be China taking controlling stakes in publicly traded multinationals that most Americans view as American businesses, much like they worked their way into our biggest banks. We're insolvent and they save us while we sell ourselves. The game was lost quite a while ago, the epiphany, to some, is the only thing new. Sib gets it.
mousewallratSalvaged from archive5 Jan 2010, 09:48
You know what, I'm done. I'm not sorting through this abortion of fear mongering articles anymore. Enjoy being a crackpot. If this were 1935, I'd be doing a post about Germany being our worst enemy. There you would be...'No, they're just fine. Good Capitalists.' Who then thought there was a war coming that would kill 50 million people? What's to say it cannot happen again? I don't think we'll have a Global War with them, but for sure conflict is coming, and I think we'll be too afraid to fight it. Did you hear about their sub coming up in the middle of our Carrier group a few months ago? NO? How about their warship ramming one of ours? NO to that one too? Poor uninformed ostrich.
MCMXCIISalvaged from archive5 Jan 2010, 10:30
Good thing the EU is going to be better off then. I really don't see China as a threat at all. It just seems like xenophobia and fear/warmongering. Plus, why should we care? The end of the world is coming in 2012. No time to fulfil your role as a prophet, MWR. :rolleyes2:
JooXSalvaged from archive5 Jan 2010, 10:33
For fuck sake, Wallrat! A bit of this shit, from time to time, was tolerable. Now it's getting to the tin-foil hat and home dug bunker stage. For starters, what would you have the FileCabi community do about it all? Make a poll and vote on how gay it all is that China is [insert whacky shit here]ing against the U.S.? Are you telling us something the leaders of your country are not aware of, and this is the only way they will be made aware of it? You are picking the shit out of China doing exactly what the U.S. did (maybe not EXACTLY) to become the super power it is today... errr, in yester-years. Is it a case of; 'We are the big man on the global campus around here and we don't wont to be pushed off our pedestal' ? Because that's what it sounds like. China isn't dumb enough to try and march over the world and enslave us all. They will attempt it through finance, if at all. And in the end it will have been the example set by the U.S. to begin with. Tin-foil - made in China - on sale at Wal-Mart... buy up big.
mousewallratSalvaged from archive5 Jan 2010, 10:40
For fuck sake, Wallrat! A bit of this shit, from time to time, was tolerable. Now it's getting to the tin-foil hat and home dug bunker stage. For starters, what would you have the FileCabi community do about it all? Make a poll and vote on how gay it all is that China is [insert whacky shit here]ing against the U.S.? Are you telling us something the leaders of your country are not aware of, and this is the only way they will be made aware of it? You are picking the shit out of China doing exactly what the U.S. did (maybe not EXACTLY) to become the super power it is today... errr, in yester-years. Is it a case of; 'We are the big man on the global campus around here and we don't wont to be pushed off our pedestal' ? Because that's what it sounds like. China isn't dumb enough to try and march over the world and enslave us all. They will attempt it through finance, if at all. And in the end it will have been the example set by the U.S. to begin with. Tin-foil - made in China - on sale at Wal-Mart... buy up big. Well, this is the Politics forum, Joox. Wtf?
MCMXCIISalvaged from archive5 Jan 2010, 10:57
For fuck sake, Wallrat! A bit of this shit, from time to time, was tolerable. Now it's getting to the tin-foil hat and home dug bunker stage. For starters, what would you have the FileCabi community do about it all? Make a poll and vote on how gay it all is that China is [insert whacky shit here]ing against the U.S.? Are you telling us something the leaders of your country are not aware of, and this is the only way they will be made aware of it? You are picking the shit out of China doing exactly what the U.S. did (maybe not EXACTLY) to become the super power it is today... errr, in yester-years. Is it a case of; 'We are the big man on the global campus around here and we don't wont to be pushed off our pedestal' ? Because that's what it sounds like. China isn't dumb enough to try and march over the world and enslave us all. They will attempt it through finance, if at all. And in the end it will have been the example set by the U.S. to begin with. Tin-foil - made in China - on sale at Wal-Mart... buy up big. Simply beautiful post! Rep owed. :thumb: Still, MWR is only expressing his fears as a good American. He has now been faced with the opinion of others. The debate has been sparked, depicting the purpose of the Politics section. All it is, as I see it, is a slight shift in power from one to another. It has happened time and time again. People thought the world would end with the Western Roman empire, but see where it has brought us! It is only natural. The U.S can't be on top forever. We all just have to adapt, but it's not like it will be the end of it all. It's just a symptom of Time passing..
PlaneswalkerXSalvaged from archive5 Jan 2010, 12:20
MWR, you silly fool. You're forgetting about the alien technology we have stored at Roswell. We'll simply fight the chinese with all that shit. Problem solved. And once you've kicked someone's ass, you don't owe them money anymore.
mousewallratSalvaged from archive5 Jan 2010, 12:57
MWR, you silly fool. You're forgetting about the alien technology we have stored at Roswell. We'll simply fight the chinese with all that shit. Problem solved. And once you've kicked someone's ass, you don't owe them money anymore. Jeez, I forgot all about that. I retract everything posted above. BLast their asses with particle beams from our fleet of invisible flying saucers. Problem solved.:thumb:
TillySalvaged from archive5 Jan 2010, 14:51
If this were 1935, I'd be doing a post about Germany being our worst enemy. There you would be...'No, they're just fine. Good Capitalists.' Who then thought there was a war coming that would kill 50 million people? What's to say it cannot happen again? I don't think we'll have a Global War with them, but for sure conflict is coming, and I think we'll be too afraid to fight it. Did you hear about their sub coming up in the middle of our Carrier group a few months ago? NO? How about their warship ramming one of ours? NO to that one too? Poor uninformed ostrich. http://bestuff.com/images/images_of_stuff/210x600/godwins… Actually, you've lost from the very beginning by sporting an Obama/Hitler avatar, especially after declaring Obama socialist as well.
mousewallratSalvaged from archive5 Jan 2010, 15:23
Actually, you've lost from the very beginning by sporting an Obama/Hitler avatar, especially after declaring Obama socialist as well. So...your theory is that Hitler was not a Socialist? Aaaand here it comes; National Socialist German Workers Party for the win! Really, this is embarassing. political party, Germanybyname of National Socialist German Workers’ Party, German Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (NSDAP) http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/39/91939-003-3… (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic-art/407190/8498… party (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/467631/politica… of the mass movement known as National Socialism (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/405414/National… Under the leadership of Adolf Hitler (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/267992/Adolf-Hi… the party came to power in Germany (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/231545/history-… in 1933 and governed by totalitarian methods until 1945. It was founded as the German Workers’ Party by Anton Drexler, a Munich locksmith, in 1919. Hitler attended one of its meetings that year, and his energy and oratorical skills soon enabled him to take over the party. He ousted the party’s former leaders in 1920–21 and renamed it the National Socialist German Workers’ Party. In 1920 Hitler also formulated a 25-point program that became the permanent basis for the party. The program called for German abandonment of the Treaty of Versailles and for the expansion of German territory. These appeals for national aggrandizement were accompanied by a strident anti-Semitic rhetoric. The party’s socialist orientation was basically a demagogic gambit designed to attract support from the working class (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/763799/working-… Under Hitler the Nazi Party grew steadily in its home base (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/270108/home-plate) of Bavaria. It organized strong-arm groups to protect its rallies and meetings. These groups drew their members from war veterans groups and paramilitary organizations and were organized under the name Sturmabteilung (SA (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/514736/SA)). In 1923 Hitler and his followers felt strong enough to stage the Beer Hall Putsch (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/58410/Beer-Hall… an unsuccessful attempt to take control of the Bavarian state government in the hope that it would trigger a nationwide insurrection against the Weimar Republic (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/639027/Weimar-R… The coup failed, the Nazi Party was temporarily banned, and Hitler was sent to prison for most of 1924. Upon his release Hitler quickly set about rebuilding his moribund party, vowing to achieve power only through legal political means thereafter. The Nazi Party’s membership grew from 25,000 in 1925 to about 180,000 in 1929.
PlaneswalkerXSalvaged from archive5 Jan 2010, 15:30
Just because the name Socialist is in the party, doesn't mean he's a socialist. According to Henry A. Turner, Hitler expressed regret for having integrated the word socialism into his party's name.[70] Hitler wrote in 1930, “Our adopted term 'Socialist' has nothing to do with Marxian Socialism. Marxism is anti-property; true Socialism is not.”
hoschiadedodiSalvaged from archive5 Jan 2010, 15:41
moah! :yawn:
HeyBuddySalvaged from archive5 Jan 2010, 15:43
It's just so sad that we've allowed ourselves to be so indebted to another country. People don't realize that when we were a TRUE CAPITALIST society, our government was against running deficits and debts. We didn't even have a federal income tax until after the civil war, and it was repealed ten years later. It was only supposed to help pay for the war. Then, they tried it again in 1891, and finally made it constitutional 1913. It was a 1% tax on the top 10%. Every time we had a debt we tried to pay it off until there was another crisis or war. Now, we tax tax tax, and spend more than we collect. That's the only reason we have to worry about China. They could destroy us financially, and our government has been putting us into this position for years.
TillySalvaged from archive5 Jan 2010, 15:53
Just because the name Socialist is in the party, doesn't mean he's a socialist. ^This Plus, one of Hitler's goals was to expel true socialism from his country. Anyway mww, you still fell back on the lame Godwin's Law card. Really, there is no worse way to try and prove a point, unless the argument was WWII to begin with.
mousewallratSalvaged from archive5 Jan 2010, 16:13
^This Plus, one of Hitler's goals was to expel true socialism from his country. Anyway mww, you still fell back on the lame Godwin's Law card. Really, there is no worse way to try and prove a point, unless the argument was WWII to begin with. Hitler was actually after getting rid of the Communists. He was in fact a Socialist. Really Tilly, you need to be more literal. Just to clarify things a bit for you, try this. Very interesting reading: http://jonjayray.tripod.com/hitler.html
mousewallratSalvaged from archive5 Jan 2010, 16:15
Just because the name Socialist is in the party, doesn't mean he's a socialist. I understand Socialism to be more about a managed economy, to remove the dips and rises by State management. Anyway, check the link on my last post, plz. If that doesn't clarify things, I have nothing to add.
TillySalvaged from archive5 Jan 2010, 16:40
Hitler was actually after getting rid of the Communists. He was in fact a Socialist. Really Tilly, you need to be more literal. Just to clarify things a bit for you, try this. Very interesting reading: http://jonjayray.tripod.com/hitler.html Hey, that's neat. I can do that too: http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-hitler.htm Jack shit. I find it amusing you're still focusing on this Hitler nonsense, even though it has nothing to do with your original argument. I think this link is more prevalent to the thread now: http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Godwin%27s_law
NanabungaSalvaged from archive5 Jan 2010, 16:54
I have spent a great deal of my adult life studying Hitler and his life and he was not, ever, in anyway, a socialist. :thumb: Conservatives seem to insist that the Nazis were a socialist government in their effort to discredit socialism and leftist policies in general. This is like using the example of East Germany, (the German Democratic Republic), to discredit democracy. Sorry, but that only demonstrates that persons inability to comprehend reality in my opinion. The idea that workers controlled the means of production in Nazi Germany is a fucking joke. It was more like a combination of aristocracy and capitalism. While technically private businessmen owned and controlled their means of production because The Nazi Charter of Labor gave employers power over their workers, the employer was subject to the quite often frequent orders of the ruling Nazi elite. After the Nazis took power in 1933, they established a controlled war economy under the direction of Dr. Hjalmar Schacht. Hitler simply exploited Germany's social unrest by promising to strengthen the labor unions and increase the standard of living. History has shown us that these were empty promises. We now know he was privately reassuring wealthy German businessmen that he would crack down on labor once he achieved power, which is exactly what he did... to an extreme. As far as the usage of the word socialist in his parties name: It was a change to the original name, and it was suggested by Hitler to add 'Socialist' to the name of the party. Hitler was always hostile to socialist ideas in the past, especially those that involved racial or sexual equality. The problem was that socialism was a popular political philosophy in Germany post World War One. This was reflected in the growth in the German Social Democrat Party (SDP), which was the largest political party in Germany at that time. Hitler simply redefined socialism by placing the word 'National' before it and he claimed he was only in favor of equality for those who had "German blood". Jews, gypsies, Poles and other 'aliens' lost their rights of citizenship, and immigration of non-Germans was brought to an end. ;) Not that I have an interest in arguing in this thread, or the topic at hand but I needed to clear that bit up... Hate on Obama all you want, complain about the USA and it's current state all you want but lets stop with the Hitler comparisons and claims.
PlaneswalkerXSalvaged from archive5 Jan 2010, 17:47
Whatever you do, make sure you don't tell MWR that "socialist" is one of the words in USSR. It would blow his mind.
JooXSalvaged from archive5 Jan 2010, 19:49
I'm calling myself a Mudkip... that makes me a Mudkip! WOOOOOOOOOO!
JACKASS2010Salvaged from archive5 Jan 2010, 21:22
I have spent a great deal of my adult life studying Hitler and his life and he was not, ever, in anyway, a socialist. :thumb: Conservatives seem to insist that the Nazis were a socialist government in their effort to discredit socialism and leftist policies in general. This is like using the example of East Germany, (the German Democratic Republic), to discredit democracy. Sorry, but that only demonstrates that persons inability to comprehend reality in my opinion. The idea that workers controlled the means of production in Nazi Germany is a fucking joke. It was more like a combination of aristocracy and capitalism. While technically private businessmen owned and controlled their means of production because The Nazi Charter of Labor gave employers power over their workers, the employer was subject to the quite often frequent orders of the ruling Nazi elite. After the Nazis took power in 1933, they established a controlled war economy under the direction of Dr. Hjalmar Schacht. Hitler simply exploited Germany's social unrest by promising to strengthen the labor unions and increase the standard of living. History has shown us that these were empty promises. We now know he was privately reassuring wealthy German businessmen that he would crack down on labor once he achieved power, which is exactly what he did... to an extreme. As far as the usage of the word socialist in his parties name: It was a change to the original name, and it was suggested by Hitler to add 'Socialist' to the name of the party. Hitler was always hostile to socialist ideas in the past, especially those that involved racial or sexual equality. The problem was that socialism was a popular political philosophy in Germany post World War One. This was reflected in the growth in the German Social Democrat Party (SDP), which was the largest political party in Germany at that time. Hitler simply redefined socialism by placing the word 'National' before it and he claimed he was only in favor of equality for those who had "German blood". Jews, gypsies, Poles and other 'aliens' lost their rights of citizenship, and immigration of non-Germans was brought to an end. ;) Not that I have an interest in arguing in this thread, or the topic at hand but I needed to clear that bit up... Hate on Obama all you want, complain about the USA and it's current state all you want but lets stop with the Hitler comparisons and claims. SEIG HEIL MEIN FUHRER!! http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/03Aq8aD4hD1uI/610x.jpg
HeyBuddySalvaged from archive6 Jan 2010, 17:53
BIG SMILE...WHITE FLOUR!! http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/03Aq8aD4hD1uI/610x.jpg Fixed
JACKASS2010Salvaged from archive6 Jan 2010, 18:01
BWAHAHAHAHAHA
MCMXCIISalvaged from archive6 Jan 2010, 19:28
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll225/MCMLXXXIX/610x.jpg Pretty much your average neo-nazi gang to my eyes and understanding. Ignorant fucks.
TillySalvaged from archive6 Jan 2010, 19:59
Did you know Adam West is a nazi? SHSwSG1rqmk
Echo1Salvaged from archive6 Jan 2010, 20:01
HOLY CRAP! NO WAYZ!
MontysDoubleSalvaged from archive7 Jan 2010, 06:06
But... but... but... that's just not true! Everyone knows that Adam West is a millionaire industrialist playboy vigilante furry. :shrug:
Supplemental PersonaSalvaged from archive7 Jan 2010, 08:39
SEIG HEIL MEIN FUHRER!! http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/03Aq8aD4hD1uI/610x.jpg What the fuck is that Pyle 3rd from right looking at camera? QQmk6mEK5OE&feature=related
Echo1Salvaged from archive7 Jan 2010, 08:56
hahah! yes! that asshole. btw. china gives me gas.
mousewallratSalvaged from archive7 Jan 2010, 09:36
hahah! yes! that asshole. btw. china gives me gas. Too much MSG in teh food.
MCMXCIISalvaged from archive7 Jan 2010, 10:34
Too much MSG in teh food. Or hot sauce.. :shrug:
mousewallratSalvaged from archive7 Jan 2010, 16:42
Or hot sauce.. :shrug: Nah...you ever see a farting Mexican? NOt me, and I live right by a lot of them.
MCMXCIISalvaged from archive7 Jan 2010, 17:19
Nah...you ever see a farting Mexican? NOt me, and I live right by a lot of them. I have only heard the rumours of the legendary meals that makes giving birth to an obese child seem like a piece of cake. The one you call "chipotle". :wth:
mousewallratSalvaged from archive7 Jan 2010, 19:50
Here are some of Hitlers planks from the NSDP. All of them diminish private property rights and the profit motive. To me these are Socialistic: 11. That all unearned income, and all income that does not arise from work, be abolished. 12. Since every war imposes on the people fearful sacrifices in life and property, all personal profit arising from the war must be regarded as a crime against the people. We therefore demand the total confiscation of all war profits whether in assets or material. 13. We demand the nationalization of businesses which have been organized into cartels. 14. We demand that all the profits from wholesale trade shall be shared out. 15. We demand extensive development of provision for old age. 16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a healthy middle-class, the immediate communalization of department stores which will be rented cheaply to small businessmen, and that preference shall be given to small businessmen for provision of supplies needed by the State, the provinces and municipalities. 17. We demand a land reform in accordance with our national requirements, and the enactment of a law to confiscate from the owners without compensation any land needed for the common purpose. The abolition of ground rents, and the prohibition of all speculation in land.
TillySalvaged from archive7 Jan 2010, 20:01
That's fascism, MWR, not socialism. Socialism seeks control of economics by having the state operate it. Fascism seeks control of economics by appropriating industry and commerce towards the state. Big difference.
NanabungaSalvaged from archive7 Jan 2010, 20:20
http://360.kombo.com/images/content/news/blurb_facepalm2_… ... FFS MWR, any fucking politician can/will say anything to get into power. Didn't I already cover this in my first post? All politicians make false claims to get the votes. What he ended up doing is completely different than what he said or may have labeled himself as. Are you fucking blind? Is the history of his actions that fucking lost on you? Tell me, are you aware of the deal Hitler and his good friend Ernst Röhm had? Where Röhm insisted that they start implementing socialist measures to destroy private capital? Are you aware of what Hitlers response consisted of? He had Röhm and all his adjutants killed, and turned the SA corps into a marching band while capital remained untouched and profits left in place. German industry, even during price controls never operated at a loss. Even the trains that sent Jews to their deaths were privately-owned and each was dully paid for by the German government for fuck's sake. That's not a socialist in any way, shape or fucking form, a dictator yes, a totalitarian yes, but a socialist? Are you serious? The first thing Hitler did was destroy the unions and kept labor prices in check. Nazi Germany espoused Volk ideology and emphasized the unity of blood. The class dimension was completely absent both prior to and following the seize of power. Your calling them socialists has all been attempted before, and while there may have been socialist aspects to their program, the Nazis have never and will never fit enough of the criteria no matter how fast you, or the next guy spins it. You have some good points regarding your views on Obama, it is beyond me why you insist on weakening your argument by adding this Hitler foolishness to it. Fuck me.
JACKASS2010Salvaged from archive7 Jan 2010, 20:27
aww that bear is so cute until it mauls your face and eats your entrails but other than that minor discomfort its cute as a mafucka.
mousewallratSalvaged from archive7 Jan 2010, 21:32
http://360.kombo.com/images/content/news/blurb_facepalm2_… ... FFS MWR, any fucking politician can/will say anything to get into power. Didn't I already cover this in my first post? All politicians make false claims to get the votes. What he ended up doing is completely different than what he said or may have labeled himself as. Are you fucking blind? Is the history of his actions that fucking lost on you?I never claimed to know everything about him or the era...I'm still learning. Still, his 1920 planks are pretty much what I said they are: Socialism. I don't know all of what he did later. I know they tried to incorporate the Left by making promises they didn't intend to keep, but not the whole of it. Tell me, are you aware of the deal Hitler and his good friend Ernst Röhm had? Where Röhm insisted that they start implementing socialist measures to destroy private capital? Are you aware of what Hitlers response consisted of? Never heard of their 'deal'. He had Röhm and all his adjutants killed, and turned the SA corps into a marching band while capital remained untouched and profits left in place. German industry, even during price controls never operated at a loss. Even the trains that sent Jews to their deaths were privately-owned and each was dully paid for by the German government for fuck's sake.Yes, I've read of this. Rohm and his fagboys were a tool that had outlived their usefulness. That's not a socialist in any way, shape or fucking form, a dictator yes, a totalitarian yes, but a socialist? Are you serious? The first thing Hitler did was destroy the unions and kept labor prices in check. Nazi Germany espoused Volk ideology and emphasized the unity of blood. The class dimension was completely absent both prior to and following the seize of power. Your calling them socialists has all been attempted before, and while there may have been socialist aspects to their program, the Nazis have never and will never fit enough of the criteria no matter how fast you, or the next guy spins it.I'll buy that. You have some good points regarding your views on Obama, it is beyond me why you insist on weakening your argument by adding this Hitler foolishness to it. Fuck me.I didn't intend to take this to Hitler...I'm more interested in China at the moment. That analogy was meant for Tilly to consider that war can approach from unforseen places. Usually for economic gain.
NanabungaSalvaged from archive8 Jan 2010, 08:11
I never claimed to know everything about him or the era...I'm still learning. Still, his 1920 planks are pretty much what I said they are: Socialism. I don't know all of what he did later. I know they tried to incorporate the Left by making promises they didn't intend to keep, but not the whole of it. And no where in any of my posts did I ever say that you claimed to, nor do I claim anything similar... as far as what his planks say/said, it is irrelevant as I have twice now tried to point out. When did Hitler ever keep his word or stick by what he claimed to be? FFS, on August twenty fourth, he signed a ten year non-aggression pact with Russia that came with provisions that included: consultation; arbitration if either party disagreed; neutrality if either went to war against a third power; no membership of a group "which is directly or indirectly aimed at the other"... and then barely a week later invaded Poland. :omg: Does that not speak volumes about the mans false claims? You don't have to know "all of what he did later", you remember that part right? Never heard of their 'deal'. Yes, I've read of this. Rohm and his fagboys were a tool that had outlived their usefulness. Ernst Röhm was a long time 'friend' and Socialist, his usefulness was limited from the very start. He was merely a tool used to gain power by using the popular Socialist movement at the time. I'm pretty sure I touched upon that in my first post. I'll buy that. That's all well and good but just know I am not trying to sell it, I am just stating what is what. I didn't write this stuff, I didn't 'prove' this, it is what it is and has been known for many, many years at this point in time. I didn't intend to take this to Hitler...I'm more interested in China at the moment. That analogy was meant for Tilly to consider that war can approach from unforseen places. Usually for economic gain. You may not have intended to but you did and when the billionaire king, seamstress the ukulele master made his idiotic statement in the other thread it egged you on to respond. I am no fan of Obama, I am no fan of the USA's current situation or it's relationship with China but nothing frustrates me more than the ever popular Hitler comparisons that run ramped on the web and in the news. Comparing Saddam Hussein to Adolph Hitler probably wont interest me enough to evoke a response from me, comparing Fidel Castro will probably be ignored as well but Barrack Obama? Dude, it's crazy talk and just paints you as a nut job in the eyes of many.
MCMXCIISalvaged from archive8 Jan 2010, 08:27
Hitler is Obama. Hitler was in fact, an extremist left-wing hippy and a good friend to John Lennon. America is Satan.
NanabungaSalvaged from archive8 Jan 2010, 09:42
Yo, MWR... you know I can see deleted posts right? You should have left it, it was much funnier than MCMXCII's.
MCMXCIISalvaged from archive8 Jan 2010, 09:47
Yo, MWR... you know I can see deleted posts right? You should have left it, it was much funnier than MCMXCII's. Gee.. Thanks.. :yawn:
NanabungaSalvaged from archive8 Jan 2010, 10:10
Gee.. Thanks.. :yawn: Oh... I'm sorry... THAT SHIT WAS SO FUCKING FUNNY!!!1!!ONE BA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAAA HAAA HAAA :rolleyes2:
MCMXCIISalvaged from archive8 Jan 2010, 10:13
Oh... I'm sorry... THAT SHIT WAS SO FUCKING FUNNY!!!1!!ONE BA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAAA HAAA HAAA :rolleyes2: :rolleyes2: Hehe, we're cool. :cool:
JACKASS2010Salvaged from archive8 Jan 2010, 10:16
it was actually quite lulzy
NanabungaSalvaged from archive8 Jan 2010, 10:37
it was actually quite lulzy your mom is quite lulzy. EL OH FUCKING EL MOTHERFUCKER!!!1!!ONE! :pt:
MCMXCIISalvaged from archive8 Jan 2010, 10:39
your mom is quite lulzy. EL OH FUCKING EL MOTHERFUCKER!!!1!!ONE! :pt: Unlike yours, which is why I stick to just having sex with her.. :rofl:
NanabungaSalvaged from archive8 Jan 2010, 10:48
Unlike yours, which is why I stick to just having sex with her.. :rofl: :omg: She's seventy four dude. You like em 'mature' huh?
MCMXCIISalvaged from archive8 Jan 2010, 11:35
:omg: She's seventy four dude. You like em 'mature' huh? I withdraw my statement. :omg:
SeamusSalvaged from archive8 Jan 2010, 12:00
And no where in any of my posts did I ever say that you claimed to, nor do I claim anything similar... as far as what his planks say/said, it is irrelevant as I have twice now tried to point out. When did Hitler ever keep his word or stick by what he claimed to be? FFS, on August twenty fourth, he signed a ten year non-aggression pact with Russia that came with provisions that included: consultation; arbitration if either party disagreed; neutrality if either went to war against a third power; no membership of a group "which is directly or indirectly aimed at the other"... and then barely a week later invaded Poland. :omg: Does that not speak volumes about the mans false claims? You don't have to know "all of what he did later", you remember that part right? Ernst Röhm was a long time 'friend' and Socialist, his usefulness was limited from the very start. He was merely a tool used to gain power by using the popular Socialist movement at the time. I'm pretty sure I touched upon that in my first post. That's all well and good but just know I am not trying to sell it, I am just stating what is what. I didn't write this stuff, I didn't 'prove' this, it is what it is and has been known for many, many years at this point in time. You may not have intended to but you did and when the billionaire king, seamstress the ukulele master made his idiotic statement in the other thread it egged you on to respond. I am no fan of Obama, I am no fan of the USA's current situation or it's relationship with China but nothing frustrates me more than the ever popular Hitler comparisons that run ramped on the web and in the news. Comparing Saddam Hussein to Adolph Hitler probably wont interest me enough to evoke a response from me, comparing Fidel Castro will probably be ignored as well but Barrack Obama? Dude, it's crazy talk and just paints you as a nut job in the eyes of many. You are so rude!
mousewallratSalvaged from archive8 Jan 2010, 13:08
Yo, MWR... you know I can see deleted posts right? You should have left it, it was much funnier than MCMXCII's. Lol, I should never post before actually waking up.
JACKASS2010Salvaged from archive8 Jan 2010, 15:47
your mom is quite lulzy. EL OH FUCKING EL MOTHERFUCKER!!!1!!ONE! :pt: My mother is infact quite lulzy, she tokes wit me ffs!
tgd_02Salvaged from archive8 Jan 2010, 16:45
CHINA LOWL
FireballSalvaged from archive12 Jan 2010, 15:23
This is just lol. http://imagechan.com/images/54a518a9115dd825a53c23828891a…
Josh85Salvaged from archive12 Jan 2010, 16:44
haha that demo is fucking awesome. He just leans around the corner and shoots him in the face. Classic.

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