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Athiests. Who's one?

Salvaged from archive These posts were salvaged from the web archive of the original FileCabi forum (2007–2008). Usernames are as they were then and aren’t linked to today’s accounts.

RaidenatorSalvaged from archive13 Apr 2007, 19:48
I'm making this thread because of the Bible is BS thread. I'm just curious here to see how many and who is an athiest here. Then I would like to know what made you become an athiest if you are one. Was it a gradual thing? Did you just wake up one day and decide you were athiest? Etc. If you aren't an athiest I would like to know your thoughts on athiesm or athiests. Myself? I'm not an athiest. I believe in God and that's ok. I really have no problem with your normal, real athiests. The ones that make me mad are the ones that get bent out of shape for little things. Like saying "under god" in the Pledge of Allegiance. Is it really that big of a deal? It's just a few words, if you really don't like it, don't say it. It isn't as though I'm forcing you to believe in God, it's simply a part of our history. I don't want that changed. I guess what I really mean to say is that I hate those people who are so outspoken about it, like they need everyone to know that they're an athiest. It makes me believe that these people are fake. Posers, if you will. In my experience other REAL athiests don't really have a problem with it. They're just like, "Yeah, that's ok I just won't say it. It's not a big deal." That's just my opinion. Other than that I really don't have a problem, it's a free country.
tgd_02Salvaged from archive13 Apr 2007, 20:22
wat do u think? LMAO
crazyjoeSalvaged from archive13 Apr 2007, 20:28
Yes Gradual thing I guess. Was being forced to go to confirmation classes(catholic church) and instead of just ignoring what the teacher was saying I paid attention. The stories he told didn't make logical sense to me and the theory of there being no god just made sense.
M-VelliSalvaged from archive13 Apr 2007, 20:41
Yes Gradual thing I guess. Was being forced to go to confirmation classes(catholic church) and instead of just ignoring what the teacher was saying I paid attention. The stories he told didn't make logical sense to me and the theory of there being no god just made sense. I really like that. On one hand, you have asshole atheists who get bent out of shape in trying to prove you wrong with science... ... or, you just got casual folk like yourself, who just simply don't take interest in it or believe. Oh, and by the way, I'm not an atheist. I'm Catholic.
crazyjoeSalvaged from archive13 Apr 2007, 20:44
I really like that. On one hand, you have asshole atheists who get bent out of shape in trying to prove you wrong with science... yeah every belief has it's own assholes who ruin shit for everyone else lol it's a shame really
Big OzzieSalvaged from archive13 Apr 2007, 21:16
They say that there really are no Atheist. I know from personal experience of a man who claimed to be an atheist who cried like a baby when he was dying, begging God to forgive him and let him live. God didn't do either.
jabaSalvaged from archive13 Apr 2007, 21:44
God is not an option for me but faith in humanity will always be where I stumble. The beliefs and actions of all humanity will always baffle me. I don't have God or any other icon except belief in others I'm afraid.
AllisterFiendSalvaged from archive13 Apr 2007, 22:21
I'm a atheist. Gradual thing I guess... Wasn't brought up to believe in god... mom never talked about it. I used to go to church and still do sometimes, just because it is a happy place (and one has a recording studio... lol) And about what Ozzie said, "They say that there really are no Atheist." Uhhh. Who is they? I never asked god for anything, never begged for my life (never needed to.. lol) but I seriously doubt I would. I would probably say "OH GOD!" or "OH SHIT!" something like that, but never begging for god. I completely believe there is no god... so I wouldn't be asking anything... lol The more I read the bible or the Hebrew bible (which I read some of today) it seems more like a story (and not a very good story either... lol). Science makes so much more sense.
jabaSalvaged from archive13 Apr 2007, 22:31
I never disrespect anyones faith or even try to change their beliefs. It is a right of passage for them. I will rot in Hell according to them but I can't help it - it is my choice not to sign on that religious dotted line. I agree science is our 'master' but if you need to have a God there are several available! :xyxthumbs:
M-VelliSalvaged from archive13 Apr 2007, 23:47
Here's what I had to say in the Bible thread: To start off a point I'd like to express, this is not the first religious topic I've seen on the internet. Starting from about 2005, I started to notice a flood of them. Atheist this, God doesn't that, blah blah. The media is growing and as humans develop and live in the information age, a lot of things start to happen. The current phase of Atheism is exactly that: a phase. A lot of things happen through history. There are always things that will change people in BIG ways. An example of this is the whole "anti-Bush" trend today. In thirty years, people may be saying he made amazing choices and was one of the greatest Presidents to ever live. In this scenario, for whatever reasons, atheism is in. Thirty years ago it wasn't as popular, and who knows what it will be thirty years from now. Now, what I just expressed were the SERIOUS atheists: normal people who simply believe they've seen enough evidence that God doesn't exist, and accept that. They're fully matured, aren't going through some creepy adolescent stages, and can make their final decisions. The other side of the tracks are the teenage atheists, like someone else had expressed earlier... rebellious kids that are absolutely positive that atheism is their final answer, and they otherwise stick to the masses. Think about this. The "emo," and "metal," phase is still pretty much in, and what does that music bring on? Certainly not God. I look around, and I see 16 year old boys Marilyn Manson themed MySpace layouts and their "gothic," poetry, and they all claim to be atheists. So, in my opinion, we've got the three atheists: A.) Real ones. (Adults) B.) Semi-real ones who stick to the masses. (Adults) C.) Dipshits. (Keyword: Puberty) In terms of the Bible being true, I don't have too many opinions on that. Let's not forget it was written by MAN, and it's bound to have mistakes, and the majority of Christians accept this. My faith in God isn't messed with by science, which has happened to so many others. The Bible, as I stated, written by man, will have mistakes and inaccuracies. Science, discovered by man, will have mistakes and inaccuracies. Methods of discovering evolution and the age of the Universe and handfuls of other theories are all man-made methods. Technology is a creation by man. Do I deny all of it? Nope, not at all. Of course I believe in the theories, but tell me, what right minded human can believe a machine built by homo sapiens can tell the age of a fossil? Oh, by all means, it goes straight inside and studies crust and radiation, right? Take a wild guess at the people who discovered and built theories on those. In other words, there's no proof but the proof we make about science. Science can easily be debunked just as well as God existing. I believe in a creator of the Universe. 'Nuff said. It wasn't as well said as I wanted it to be, so if anyone starts questioning it, I'll probably refine.
QuackersSalvaged from archive14 Apr 2007, 00:02
Athiest/Agnostic I don't believe in the the bible etc, or any God, but I don't deny the possibility that there is a God of some sorts, I just think the possibilty of their being a God is very slim. I'm against organised religion and brainwashing involved, but I don't care if people have their own beliefs. I wish I did believe in a heaven etc and God, but I can't bring myself to delude myself that there is one.
UncoverRealitySalvaged from archive14 Apr 2007, 00:17
They say that there really are no Atheist. In some respects this is true. No logical person could really consider themselves to be a complete atheist. i.e. that they know for sure there is no God. It is something that can never be fully disproved (scientifically or otherwise) - I'm sure most people have heard Bertrand Russell's parable of the celestial teapot. If you haven't: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot I would consider myself to be a De Facto Athiest (Richard Dawkings - 'The God Delusion') De Facto Atheist - "I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there"
RaidenatorSalvaged from archive14 Apr 2007, 00:53
I've seen a few people mention that they believe in science. My personal belief is that science and God work together. I see no reason why God wouldn't use science to create man, the world, etc. That's just what I believe. It goes along with the "Creation"/"Evolution" theory. I think they could very well be the same thing, God using evolution to create man.
AllisterFiendSalvaged from archive14 Apr 2007, 02:43
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/1048/608134690ed4bc7fe…
asdfSalvaged from archive14 Apr 2007, 06:22
I am an atheist, but, I respect everyone's right to choose what they believe.
Rocker KidSalvaged from archive14 Apr 2007, 06:34
I favor "creator" over "science". I don't think the ENTIRE universe (it is so big that our simple human minds cannot even begin to imagine how big it really is) just sort of popped up one day out of "nothing" because nothing doesn't exist- nothing is somthing. Somone had to just be there and was like: "I am the master of all... I can create anything I want... I'll start with a black page and then I'll take somthing shiny and just toss them around, stars... and now somthing else... planets I'll call them... I'll make them out of different things... But maybe I should put somthing on these planets.... somthing alive... This one looks suitable, nice and comfortable... Let's see what I can do with this planet I will call Earth, and see what my creatures will do with it before I must have them come meet me." Or somthing like that. And really, I have had way too many expierances that are simply unatural.... I only recently found out about "Indigo Children" but right on my mom was like "That's you" and I was like "What the- that pretty much is me" http://www.metagifted.org/ For as long back as I can remember I have been well... sorta weird. For starters- I used to answer the phone before it wrang picking it up and saying hello and knowing who was on the other line. (I did this when I was little- now I can hear a faint ring before it starts or I look at telephones right before they ring usually followed by: "Phone's gonna ring"-- "Thanks, Sarah") When my family said "Sarah, the phone didn't rin-" is when is would usually start ringing. My mom said I could reconize and name dead family members and even old pets by face and name from photographs I had never seen before. When I was around 4 I met my first friend Heather on the playground across the street, my mom asked me if I would like to have a play date with her and I told her "No, because she is going to die in a car crash soon." Of course this worried my mom and about a week later her grandfather was killed in a car wreck. I was close. Many auoras have appeared in pictures of me- though most of them only come up in non-digital cameras I remember talking to Mary or a very pretty woman at this holy site one time. I was by a statue and I was the only one who could see her. I don't remember much of the talking but I was like "yeah" alot and nodding. When I was about 8 I was playing outside with no shoes on and I was on my neighbor's driveway, they were by far the most un-organized people I have ever met to the day, they had crap piled up in every surface of their home and even more crap in their back yard. When I was about to take a step I looked down and somthing shiny caught my eye, I heard a voice of a woman say (who I believe was my guardian angel) "Don't step there" being very frightended by the clarity of her voice I had to make sure I wasn't crazy so I put my foot down and felt pain. I looked at the bottom of my foot- which was bleeding. After about 2 days of some mild discomfort my mom managed to get a small shard of glass out of my foot. Those are only a few cases. But now.... it all seems to have taken a sinister turn. Instead of angels I see a frightening shadowey figure following me in my house (it has followed me for about 3 years) and equally scary things. I can hardly live life without anxiety and depression in my way. I don't know why. All of this.... is proof enough for me there is somthing out there... were all here for a reason and it's not to just reproduce and die.. there's somthing more.
TomasUliSalvaged from archive14 Apr 2007, 07:35
Athiest/Agnostic I don't believe in the the bible etc, or any God, but I don't deny the possibility that there is a God of some sorts, I just think the possibilty of their being a God is very slim. I'm against organised religion and brainwashing involved, but I don't care if people have their own beliefs. I wish I did believe in a heaven etc and God, but I can't bring myself to delude myself that there is one. agree wih you 100%
UncoverRealitySalvaged from archive14 Apr 2007, 12:29
For those interested.... http://www.********************************.com/view?i=e1…
Rocker KidSalvaged from archive14 Apr 2007, 14:35
For those interested.... http://www.********************************.com/view?i=e1… Wow that dude was so annoying...... One of those bitter athiests. :rolleyes:
jabaSalvaged from archive14 Apr 2007, 15:30
Who is it who puts a religion into a young mind? It is like 'I wish I was a Muslim' or 'I wish I was a Jew' and even 'I wish I was a Hindu' where does it end? We as humans need to break down the barriers on religion. Everyone deserves a little bit of respect on all things religious and also non-religious. When a suicide bomber takes his own life as well as many others it makes me much more able to disregard religion. Brainwashing is an international trait!
Snuff.Salvaged from archive14 Apr 2007, 15:35
I'm atheist, not "an athiest". ;)
UncoverRealitySalvaged from archive14 Apr 2007, 17:16
I'm all for people being allowed to believe whatever the fuck they wanna believe. But has anyone seen this? I'm bewildered... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_corres… Any creationists here by the way??
Rocker KidSalvaged from archive14 Apr 2007, 18:41
Me. I don't think we came from chimps, that's such a load of BS.
UncoverRealitySalvaged from archive14 Apr 2007, 19:11
Me. I don't think we came from chimps, that's such a load of BS. Cool. Out of interest, did you come to that conclusion after research into the subject of evolution?
jabaSalvaged from archive14 Apr 2007, 21:36
Me. I don't think we came from chimps, that's such a load of BS.When I see one scratching his arse - I just know it's where I get it from lol! :xyxthumbs:
Cymru am bythSalvaged from archive14 Apr 2007, 21:44
<<<<<<<<<<< yep, monkey:xyxthumbs:
MonstermashSalvaged from archive14 Apr 2007, 22:33
Athiest/Agnostic I don't believe in the the bible etc, or any God, but I don't deny the possibility that there is a God of some sorts, I just think the possibilty of their being a God is very slim. I'm against organised religion and brainwashing involved, but I don't care if people have their own beliefs. I wish I did believe in a heaven etc and God, but I can't bring myself to delude myself that there is one. Yes this is sort of where I stand also. In my vote I chose that I believe, because I am more a believer then a disbeliever. I've said before there must be something out there, be it a higher level of being or definately a highler level of consciousness or being, I just don't know what that is. When I was about 11 or 12 I was very religous and was even prepared to become a vicar or something like that, but puberty came along :) There is a lot of stuff that remains unexplained, near death experiences where people can even get a glimpse of the future and have it come true or see a reality beyond our own. Ghosts. Ufos. What does it all mean. It is not good enough to just dissmiss it as chicken feed, there is something to it. That is why I am I guess more of a believer than a skeptic, but I do not believe enough to be considered a christian and I feel I would even be dishonest to god by saying I was a believer, if that makes sense.
andrexoteSalvaged from archive14 Apr 2007, 22:39
They say that there really are no Atheist. I know from personal experience of a man who claimed to be an atheist who cried like a baby when he was dying, begging God to forgive him and let him live. God didn't do either. That's my theory about god. many people like to say that they are athiest because of this and that...and they are maybe right, but if you forget all the church things, budda things, islam things and you start thinking by yourself, you will know there is god. there's now one real god like the christians or any other religions for me. there is just....god and laws
The JokerSalvaged from archive14 Apr 2007, 22:50
There is no god...seriously..if your really think about it...all god is peoples answers to which they dont know the answer...its fucking stupid...You cant sit down with a religious person and have a fucking logical and rational conversation with them about religion....They'll just start getting angry cause they never wanna fucking admit that the person thats going against them might be right.... YEAH WELL WHO MADE THE UNIVERSE?!! uhh...we dont know... THATS RIGHT GOD DID IT!! jeezus fucking christ...when will they ever learn..When will people get pulled out of this matrix world their living in and fucking realize the fucking reasonable and rational AND LOGICAL truth...IM AN ATHIEST!!!
UncoverRealitySalvaged from archive14 Apr 2007, 22:58
There is no god...seriously..if your really think about it...all god is peoples answers to which they dont know the answer...its fucking stupid... ....you don't truly no the answer either dude. But I agree with you! :xyxthumbs:
andrexoteSalvaged from archive14 Apr 2007, 23:14
There is no god...seriously..if your really think about it...all god is peoples answers to which they dont know the answer...its fucking stupid...You cant sit down with a religious person and have a fucking logical and rational conversation with them about religion....They'll just start getting angry cause they never wanna fucking admit that the person thats going against them might be right.... YEAH WELL WHO MADE THE UNIVERSE?!! uhh...we dont know... THATS RIGHT GOD DID IT!! jeezus fucking christ...when will they ever learn..When will people get pulled out of this matrix world their living in and fucking realize the fucking reasonable and rational AND LOGICAL truth...IM AN ATHIEST!!! is the human being logical? joker, screw those guys..they don't know shit. just try to find god by yourself
PARABOT54Salvaged from archive15 Apr 2007, 01:10
YES. I no longer recite the pledge of alliegence. And after I sneeze and someone "blesses" me I punch them in the throat. I usually kept quiet about my atheism, but 911 made me very vocal.
Rocker KidSalvaged from archive15 Apr 2007, 01:24
There is no god...seriously..if your really think about it...all god is peoples answers to which they dont know the answer...its fucking stupid...You cant sit down with a religious person and have a fucking logical and rational conversation with them about religion....They'll just start getting angry cause they never wanna fucking admit that the person thats going against them might be right.... YEAH WELL WHO MADE THE UNIVERSE?!! uhh...we dont know... THATS RIGHT GOD DID IT!! jeezus fucking christ...when will they ever learn..When will people get pulled out of this matrix world their living in and fucking realize the fucking reasonable and rational AND LOGICAL truth...IM AN ATHIEST!!! http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h142/Rocker_Kid/stfu.jpg :mad2:
jabaSalvaged from archive15 Apr 2007, 01:29
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h142/Rocker_Kid/stfu.jpg :mad2:I tried to be an athiest once. Then I saw my reflection in a big mirror. I am now a cunt! :xyxthumbs:
crazyjoeSalvaged from archive15 Apr 2007, 06:30
jeezus fucking christ...when will they ever learn..When will people get pulled out of this matrix world their living in and fucking realize the fucking reasonable and rational AND LOGICAL truth...IM AN ATHIEST!!! What truth? There's no way to know for sure that a god exists. You cannot prove that there is no god existing therefore you aren't believing a truth. I don't know how humans came about. Perhaps evolution - perhaps a creator, but to be honest it doesn't matter to me. What matters is that we are here now and we need to do things to insure a future for the next generations to come.
The JokerSalvaged from archive15 Apr 2007, 06:48
What truth? There's no way to know for sure that a god exists. You cannot prove that there is no god existing therefore you aren't believing a truth. I don't know how humans came about. Perhaps evolution - perhaps a creator, but to be honest it doesn't matter to me. What matters is that we are here now and we need to do things to insure a future for the next generations to come. CAN I GETTA AMEN!!:xyxthumbs:
Heero ValentineSalvaged from archive15 Apr 2007, 11:54
same opinion as t.rex ow btw joker have evr tried convincing a christian that god doesn't exists? hell i did that once in a game, hell that was funny and he gave the same argument as u did. guy: who made the universe? me: dunno, why u asking? guy: see god does exists, who else would have done that? me:...dude you're hopeless
nwoantibodySalvaged from archive16 Apr 2007, 20:28
In some respects this is true. No logical person could really consider themselves to be a complete atheist. i.e. that they know for sure there is no God. It is something that can never be fully disproved (scientifically or otherwise) - I'm sure most people have heard Bertrand Russell's parable of the celestial teapot. If you haven't: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot I would consider myself to be a De Facto Athiest You will never be able to prove that this univers is just the dream of Shiva and when Shiva wakes up, it will all cease to exist. Give me a break, backing magical thinking with skepticism?
UncoverRealitySalvaged from archive16 Apr 2007, 21:29
You will never be able to prove that this univers is just the dream of Shiva and when Shiva wakes up, it will all cease to exist. Give me a break, backing magical thinking with skepticism? I'm confused?? :eek7: What are you talking about?? Did you actually read my post?
Rocker KidSalvaged from archive16 Apr 2007, 22:03
same opninion as t.rex ow btw joker have evr tried convincing a christian that god doesn't exists? hell i did that once in a game, hell that was funny and he gave the same argument as u did. guy: who made the universe? me: dunno, why u asking? guy: see god does exists, who else would have done that? me:...dude you're hopeless :1orglaugh: :1orglaugh: :1orglaugh: :1orglaugh: I love it when people say that.... Gets me evrey time.
RaidenatorSalvaged from archive16 Apr 2007, 23:30
same opninion as t.rex ow btw joker have evr tried convincing a christian that god doesn't exists? hell i did that once in a game, hell that was funny and he gave the same argument as u did. guy: who made the universe? me: dunno, why u asking? guy: see god does exists, who else would have done that? me:...dude you're hopeless I think if you were to talk to a smart christian it would be a different story. Not all come up with as dumb of arguements as that. It's like they're arguing that the world is flat. Though God theory can't be proven or disproven.
The JokerSalvaged from archive16 Apr 2007, 23:55
Well yes he can be disproven...and yes he can be proven...there logical and rational arguments on both sides...example... You could say if God really exist, why does he allow all this evil to happen on Earth? A smart Christian scholar would retort cause what you think of evil is of but not a thing its self but kinda like a place of where god is not... but then if you understand the conversation/argument then you can retort back...Well if God is all knowing and is divine of power....and his Omnipresent God cannot both be every where and then no where at the same time...that goes against the law of Non-Contradiction...Nothing cannot both be and Not be at the same time... Now heres a universal arguments that has scientist and highly educated people still thinking... The Eidological Argument - If i have an idea of perfection then a perfect being must exist as its cause....the perfect being=God The Ontological Argument- To be God is to be a perfect being A perfect being must be perfect in all ways and deficient in none A being who actually exist is more perfect then the one who doesnt A being that doesn't exist is supremely deficient {Therefore, If God is truly a perfect Being, then he must exist! The Teleological Argument Most versions of the Teleological Argument are arguments from analogy and take some such form as: Watches, Houses, ships, Machines, etc., all exhibit design, and they are planned and produced by intelligent beings. The Universe exhibits design. {Therefore, the universe was planned and produced by an intelligent being.} These Arguments are still around today folks are are still trying to be answered...
RaidenatorSalvaged from archive17 Apr 2007, 06:45
Well yes he can be disproven...and yes he can be proven...there logical and rational arguments on both sides...example... You could say if God really exist, why does he allow all this evil to happen on Earth? A smart Christian scholar would retort cause what you think of evil is of but not a thing its self but kinda like a place of where god is not... but then if you understand the conversation/argument then you can retort back...Well if God is all knowing and is divine of power....and his Omnipresent God cannot both be every where and then no where at the same time...that goes against the law of Non-Contradiction...Nothing cannot both be and Not be at the same time... Now heres a universal arguments that has scientist and highly educated people still thinking... The Eidological Argument - If i have an idea of perfection then a perfect being must exist as its cause....the perfect being=God The Ontological Argument- To be God is to be a perfect being A perfect being must be perfect in all ways and deficient in none A being who actually exist is more perfect then the one who doesnt A being that doesn't exist is supremely deficient {Therefore, If God is truly a perfect Being, then he must exist! The Teleological Argument Most versions of the Teleological Argument are arguments from analogy and take some such form as: Watches, Houses, ships, Machines, etc., all exhibit design, and they are planned and produced by intelligent beings. The Universe exhibits design. {Therefore, the universe was planned and produced by an intelligent being.} These Arguments are still around today folks are are still trying to be answered... I like it, but I have one point of contention. I don't know about what other churches teach, but within my own we are taught that God gave us free agency. Thus, he wouldn't intervene in anything that took away our right to choose. That's why he allows this evil to happen, because it's all been the choices of man. As for the law of non-contradiction, wouldn't it make sense that God isn't bound by the laws of nature or the universe? I would think he was the one who created them. It doesn't sound that intelligent, but that's just what I think.
Heero ValentineSalvaged from archive17 Apr 2007, 06:46
I think if you were to talk to a smart christian it would be a different story. Not all come up with as dumb of arguements as that. It's like they're arguing that the world is flat. Though God theory can't be proven or disproven. yeah i know, too bad the dumb christians fuck it up for the rest. there way better arguments than this one, point is most christians use this types just because they can't explain, thus god must have done it o.O
amaizenblueSalvaged from archive17 Apr 2007, 15:33
Well yes he can be disproven...and yes he can be proven...there logical and rational arguments on both sides...example... You could say if God really exist, why does he allow all this evil to happen on Earth? A smart Christian scholar would retort cause what you think of evil is of but not a thing its self but kinda like a place of where god is not... but then if you understand the conversation/argument then you can retort back...Well if God is all knowing and is divine of power....and his Omnipresent God cannot both be every where and then no where at the same time...that goes against the law of Non-Contradiction...Nothing cannot both be and Not be at the same time... Now heres a universal arguments that has scientist and highly educated people still thinking... The Eidological Argument - If i have an idea of perfection then a perfect being must exist as its cause....the perfect being=God The Ontological Argument- To be God is to be a perfect being A perfect being must be perfect in all ways and deficient in none A being who actually exist is more perfect then the one who doesnt A being that doesn't exist is supremely deficient {Therefore, If God is truly a perfect Being, then he must exist! The Teleological Argument Most versions of the Teleological Argument are arguments from analogy and take some such form as: Watches, Houses, ships, Machines, etc., all exhibit design, and they are planned and produced by intelligent beings. The Universe exhibits design. {Therefore, the universe was planned and produced by an intelligent being.} These Arguments are still around today folks are are still trying to be answered... I can play devil's advocate and give you a logical debate from the Christian side, if you like. I used to be staunchly on that side of the fence. I'm bored, so we'll see if we can make this thing interesting... Question: Why does God allow evil things to happen on earth? I had a hard time following what you wrote after this, but I think basically you are saying that Christians claim that evil as we perceive it is really just a separation from God. If we were in the presence of God, there would be no evil, because God is good. Well, this is a common response from Christians. So you say that this means God is contradictiory, because he is supposed to be omnipresent. If he is everywhere, how can we be separated from him, causing evil? My response to that would be that God IS everywhere, and at the same time we are separated from him. This is possible because it is a matter of degree. God is everywhere, but he shields his full glory from our sight to protect us. Because of sin, we are too unholy to behold the full majesty of God. Were we to witness Him in his full glory, we would die. Therefore the separation from God is not absolute; he is still there for us, always, but the sin (evil) keeps us from seeing his complete holiness. So you see when a Christian says that evil comes from separation from God, he doesn't mean complete disassociation. Just a separation from his full majesty. :1bluewinky:
tgd_02Salvaged from archive17 Apr 2007, 16:47
lol idiots acting smarteres are teh cool!!111
CraigKrageSalvaged from archive17 Apr 2007, 17:12
I'm not a cult member. I dont believe in the easter bunny or any other made up fairy tales. I believe in right and wrong and good and bad. We've all done both and will continue to do both. Because you go to a big house with stained glass windows doesnt make you a better human. I went to church once and the dude up front said an awsome thing. "do what you can when you can with what you got." Thats good advice. Peace Out Sheep.
Snuff.Salvaged from archive17 Apr 2007, 18:44
lol idiots acting smarteres are teh cool!!111 More like informed people presenting learned theological arguments, IMO. Good thing we've got people like you around to kick the cool factor, hey TGD? :1orglaugh:
amaizenblueSalvaged from archive17 Apr 2007, 18:54
More like informed people presenting learned theological arguments, IMO. Good thing we've got people like you around to kick the cool factor, hey TGD? :1orglaugh: yeah, cause nobody is as cool as a message board participant with nearly 6000 posts who speaks chatroom jargon fluently....:xyxthumbs:
tgd_02Salvaged from archive17 Apr 2007, 21:08
yeah, cause nobody is as cool as a message board participant with nearly 6000 posts who speaks chatroom jargon fluently....:xyxthumbs: More like informed people presenting learned theological arguments, IMO. Good thing we've got people like you around to kick the cool factor, hey TGD? :1orglaugh: DUH im so teh cool jealous faggots
usuqmydiqSalvaged from archive18 Apr 2007, 01:39
I'm a believer in God simply because even science points to the need for a creator. Even if we came about simply by accident because of celestial events caused by the catastrophic collision of matter it begs the question of where the matter came from. Who created it? The answer to the question is; nobody knows. To believe that the matter that supposedly created us has just existed forever without being created by something is just as hard for a person to explain as believing that some intelligent force has existed forever and created our world. Kind of makes you scratch your head and think.
K-LabSalvaged from archive18 Apr 2007, 01:49
With all the horrible things going on in the world today it's hard for some to keep there faith.I lost mine along time ago and have never gotten in back.In way you could say that I don't want it back.Without out all the christian talk thrown in my face and jesus this and jesus that, it's given me a real insight to the real world.Not that keep praying and have faith bullshit.That's all just a security blanket.the real truth of life is that no matter how good you live your life and how good of a person you are,life will always find a way to shit on you.I say this becasue I've seen good honest people suffer horrible and long painful deaths when they did nothing wrong.But at the same time I see these ass holes who deserve to die with out so much as a slight cold, living the care free life while they go out and hurt innocent people.I also hate people when they say if God did something good it's God's will but if something bad happens God works in mysterious ways.Thats the biggest load of crap ever.I'm gonna lay it down straight "God" if he even exsists doesn't give a shit about any of you.All he cares about is you worshipping him all day and all night.He could care less if you die fast or suffer.Anmd thats all I have to say about that.
usuqmydiqSalvaged from archive18 Apr 2007, 02:00
With all the horrible things going on in the world today it's hard for some to keep there faith.I lost mine along time ago and have never gotten in back.In way you could say that I don't want it back.Without out all the christian talk thrown in my face and jesus this and jesus that, it's given me a real insight to the real world.Not that keep praying and have faith bullshit.That's all just a security blanket.the real truth of life is that no matter how good you live your life and how good of a person you are,life will always find a way to shit on you.I say this becasue I've seen good honest people suffer horrible and long painful deaths when they did nothing wrong.But at the same time I see these ass holes who deserve to die with out so much as a slight cold, living the care free life while they go out and hurt innocent people.I also hate people when they say if God did something good it's God's will but if something bad happens God works in mysterious ways.Thats the biggest load of crap ever.I'm gonna lay it down straight "God" if he even exsists doesn't give a shit about any of you.All he cares about is you worshipping him all day and all night.He could care less if you die fast or suffer.Anmd thats all I have to say about that. I've seen people die painful deaths while still praising God for the gift of life. Some people just enjoy the time they have while others choose to only see the bad things in life. What a pity!
RaidenatorSalvaged from archive18 Apr 2007, 04:47
With all the horrible things going on in the world today it's hard for some to keep there faith.I lost mine along time ago and have never gotten in back.In way you could say that I don't want it back.Without out all the christian talk thrown in my face and jesus this and jesus that, it's given me a real insight to the real world.Not that keep praying and have faith bullshit.That's all just a security blanket.the real truth of life is that no matter how good you live your life and how good of a person you are,life will always find a way to shit on you.I say this becasue I've seen good honest people suffer horrible and long painful deaths when they did nothing wrong.But at the same time I see these ass holes who deserve to die with out so much as a slight cold, living the care free life while they go out and hurt innocent people.I also hate people when they say if God did something good it's God's will but if something bad happens God works in mysterious ways.Thats the biggest load of crap ever.I'm gonna lay it down straight "God" if he even exsists doesn't give a shit about any of you.All he cares about is you worshipping him all day and all night.He could care less if you die fast or suffer.Anmd thats all I have to say about that. Huh...reminds me of a South Park episode..
crazyjoeSalvaged from archive18 Apr 2007, 22:39
With all the horrible things going on in the world today it's hard for some to keep there faith.I lost mine along time ago and have never gotten in back.In way you could say that I don't want it back.Without out all the christian talk thrown in my face and jesus this and jesus that, it's given me a real insight to the real world.Not that keep praying and have faith bullshit.That's all just a security blanket.the real truth of life is that no matter how good you live your life and how good of a person you are,life will always find a way to shit on you.I say this becasue I've seen good honest people suffer horrible and long painful deaths when they did nothing wrong.But at the same time I see these ass holes who deserve to die with out so much as a slight cold, living the care free life while they go out and hurt innocent people.I also hate people when they say if God did something good it's God's will but if something bad happens God works in mysterious ways.Thats the biggest load of crap ever.I'm gonna lay it down straight "God" if he even exsists doesn't give a shit about any of you.All he cares about is you worshipping him all day and all night.He could care less if you die fast or suffer.Anmd thats all I have to say about that. I began to read what you wrote, but your avatar is too distracting...in a good way though :)
Josh85Salvaged from archive19 Apr 2007, 10:38
There are one million cups. Under one random cup, there is a ball. Christian: "I KNOW it is under this cup. I have no proof but I KNOW" Aethiest: "I KNOW it is under this cup. I have no proof but I KNOW" Agnostic: "Fucked if I know, there's a million of the cunts"
jabaSalvaged from archive19 Apr 2007, 19:23
yeah, cause nobody is as cool as a message board participant with nearly 6000 posts who speaks chatroom jargon fluently....:xyxthumbs:Is that what it is? Leave the nonce to say what he wants. He does anyhow. :xyxthumbs:
RaidenatorSalvaged from archive20 Apr 2007, 05:33
Is that what it is? Leave the nonce to say what he wants. He does anyhow. :xyxthumbs: Heh...Nonce...
IkniqpalagaqSalvaged from archive20 Apr 2007, 05:40
me have spirits all around they bring me meat and women and igloo and dog
PARABOT54Salvaged from archive22 Apr 2007, 16:28
Anybody want "In God We Trust" removed off the money? "Under God" removed from the pledge?
Rocker KidSalvaged from archive22 Apr 2007, 20:40
Anybody want "In God We Trust" removed off the money? "Under God" removed from the pledge? Nope
211drinkerSalvaged from archive22 Apr 2007, 21:52
Anybody want "In God We Trust" removed off the money? "Under God" removed from the pledge? I'm atheist and i really don't care if they keep it or not
loadrunnerSalvaged from archive22 Apr 2007, 21:54
Some time ago, a guy wanted to take me to court, becouse I insulted him with the words "I do not beleive in a God, it is al evolution" His lawyer called me, he told me He would sew me for $50,000 or I should pay $5,000 Instant. I tolld his lawyer to shut up, Becouse he insulted me calling me a infidel going to hell. But in my thoughts There is no hell, or heaven, and no God as written in the bible. When i went to court, I had to swear with my han on the bible ( Are you going to tell the truth, nothing but the truth. bla bla....... So help you God) I told the judge, that I was going to tell a ly, if i say Yes on the question in the name of "God". I do not beleive in God, and do not beleive the bible. . At this point The Guy who sewd me going mad... The judge now knew it was something what does not belong into a court. She told us, we cannot meet or come closer then 500 meters. Or we both get a $1200 fine ( lol ) She hits the hammer. An other christian asked me: Why is it so hard for you to beleive. i asked him "Do you beleive in magic, in people who can move things, or pul real rabbits out of a hat" The guy sayd to me " Thats impossible, nobody can do that, matter doesn't come out of nothing, You've been to school?! " I asked him, how a guy could create 25,000,000,000 galaxys containing almost unlimitid stars. a Sun, a Moon 8 other planets, 1,000,000,000 mammels and insects, 145.000.000.000 gallons of water in seven days. out of nothingness ? " He started to cry. Was it becouse of me? or do beleivers disrespect people who do not beleive... btw I'm not writing this to annoy people, it is just the way I see The truth. Free you mind from your body, and see from above. This world , and this misery, is no more then a part of evolution. There is no Hell, there is no Heaven. There is only us . After this life we see the truth.
amaizenblueSalvaged from archive22 Apr 2007, 22:12
Some time ago, a guy wanted to take me to court, becouse I insulted him with the words "I do not beleive in a God, it is al evolution" His lawyer called me, he told me He would sew me for $50,000 or I should pay $5,000 Instant. I tolld his lawyer to shut up, Becouse he insulted me calling me a infidel going to hell. But in my thoughts There is no hell, or heaven, and no God as written in the bible. When i went to court, I had to swear with my han on the bible ( Are you going to tell the truth, nothing but the truth. bla bla....... So help you God) I told the judge, that I was going to tell a ly, if i say Yes on the question in the name of "God". I do not beleive in God, and do not beleive the bible. . At this point The Guy who sewd me going mad... The judge now knew it was something what does not belong into a court. She told us, we cannot meet or come closer then 500 meters. Or we both get a $1200 fine ( lol ) She hits the hammer. An other christian asked me: Why is it so hard for you to beleive. i asked him "Do you beleive in magic, in people who can move things, or pul real rabbits out of a hat" The guy sayd to me " Thats impossible, nobody can do that, matter doesn't come out of nothing, You've been to school?! " I asked him, how a guy could create 25,000,000,000 galaxys containing almost unlimitid stars. a Sun, a Moon 8 other planets, 1,000,000,000 mammels and insects, 145.000.000.000 gallons of water in seven days. out of nothingness ? " He started to cry. Was it becouse of me? or do beleivers disrespect people who do not beleive... btw I'm not writing this to annoy people, it is just the way I see The truth. Free you mind from your body, and see from above. This world , and this misery, is no more then a part of evolution. There is no Hell, there is no Heaven. There is only us . After this life we see the truth. Dude wanted to sue you for saying you don't believe in God. Really? And the second guy, he cried? Wow. :eek:
loadrunnerSalvaged from archive22 Apr 2007, 22:27
Dude wanted to sue you for saying you don't believe in God. Really? And the second guy, he cried? Wow. :eek: it was a very nasty discussion, after he shouted infidel and satan to me, I tolld him to go polish his golden bible. But he was a Jew. so it was something reminding him to WWII. which made it worse
PARABOT54Salvaged from archive23 Apr 2007, 04:20
Originally Posted by PARABOT54 Anybody want "In God We Trust" removed off the money? "Under God" removed from the pledge? I'm atheist and i really don't care if they keep it or not I do :xyxthumbs:
RaidenatorSalvaged from archive23 Apr 2007, 06:01
I'm not an athiest but I think it's dumb to take "In God We Trust" off money, and taking "under God" out of the pledge. Those two phrases are part of the history of our country. It's not even a matter of religion really.
PARABOT54Salvaged from archive23 Apr 2007, 17:06
I'm not an athiest but I think it's dumb to take "In God We Trust" off money, and taking "under God" out of the pledge. Those two phrases are part of the history of our country. It's not even a matter of religion really. Neither originally had it. They were contaminated by asshole politicians who decided we needed it.:mad2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_allegiance :mad2:
RaidenatorSalvaged from archive23 Apr 2007, 17:38
Neither originally had it. They were contaminated by asshole politicians who decided we needed it.:mad2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_allegiance :mad2: I know, the country wasn't predominantly founded by religious people, but regardless it's a part of history now. I wouldn't mind going back to "One nation invdivisible" but I just fail to see the point. It's nothing more than a couple of empty words. Don't get me wrong, I don't have any problems with athiests, but doesn't it just seem like a pointless act to remove them?
The JokerSalvaged from archive23 Apr 2007, 17:57
Some time ago, a guy wanted to take me to court, becouse I insulted him with the words "I do not beleive in a God, it is al evolution" His lawyer called me, he told me He would sew me for $50,000 or I should pay $5,000 Instant. I tolld his lawyer to shut up, Becouse he insulted me calling me a infidel going to hell. But in my thoughts There is no hell, or heaven, and no God as written in the bible. When i went to court, I had to swear with my han on the bible ( Are you going to tell the truth, nothing but the truth. bla bla....... So help you God) I told the judge, that I was going to tell a ly, if i say Yes on the question in the name of "God". I do not beleive in God, and do not beleive the bible. . At this point The Guy who sewd me going mad... The judge now knew it was something what does not belong into a court. She told us, we cannot meet or come closer then 500 meters. Or we both get a $1200 fine ( lol ) She hits the hammer. An other christian asked me: Why is it so hard for you to beleive. i asked him "Do you beleive in magic, in people who can move things, or pul real rabbits out of a hat" The guy sayd to me " Thats impossible, nobody can do that, matter doesn't come out of nothing, You've been to school?! " I asked him, how a guy could create 25,000,000,000 galaxys containing almost unlimitid stars. a Sun, a Moon 8 other planets, 1,000,000,000 mammels and insects, 145.000.000.000 gallons of water in seven days. out of nothingness ? " He started to cry. Was it becouse of me? or do beleivers disrespect people who do not beleive... btw I'm not writing this to annoy people, it is just the way I see The truth. Free you mind from your body, and see from above. This world , and this misery, is no more then a part of evolution. There is no Hell, there is no Heaven. There is only us . After this life we see the truth. That just made my day.Damn...ive always thought about it...if ever i go to court ..since i am an athiest ...ive been waitin the day iill be able to say..i wont tell a lie...for i do not believe in the bible or god...HA! ...you sur are a hero!
Vigil AnteSalvaged from archive23 Apr 2007, 18:17
In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion more seriously than the practitioners.
PARABOT54Salvaged from archive23 Apr 2007, 21:21
I know, the country wasn't predominantly founded by religious people, but regardless it's a part of history now. I wouldn't mind going back to "One nation invdivisible" but I just fail to see the point. It's nothing more than a couple of empty words. Don't get me wrong, I don't have any problems with athiests, but doesn't it just seem like a pointless act to remove them? What if it was "UNDER SATAN"? Any problem then?
Cymru am bythSalvaged from archive23 Apr 2007, 22:30
That just made my day.Damn...ive always thought about it...if ever i go to court ..since i am an athiest ...ive been waitin the day iill be able to say..i wont tell a lie...for i do not believe in the bible or god...HA! ...you sur are a hero! ever heard of affirmation? I don't know about in the States but here if you object to the oath you can affirm instead, i did it when i had to do jury duty a few years back. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmation
RaidenatorSalvaged from archive24 Apr 2007, 06:18
ever heard of affirmation? I don't know about in the States but here if you object to the oath you can affirm instead, i did it when i had to do jury duty a few years back. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmation Yeah I was going to say the same thing. You don't have to swear on the bible.
Vigil AnteSalvaged from archive24 Apr 2007, 19:18
Maybe this will sum it up: I'd rather live my whole life assuming there is a God, only to find out that there isn't, than to live my whole life assuming there isn't a God, only to find out there is.
jabaSalvaged from archive25 Apr 2007, 16:12
Maybe this will sum it up: I'd rather live my whole life assuming there is a God, only to find out that there isn't, than to live my whole life assuming there isn't a God, only to find out there is.Typical! :D
amaizenblueSalvaged from archive25 Apr 2007, 17:42
Maybe this will sum it up: I'd rather live my whole life assuming there is a God, only to find out that there isn't, than to live my whole life assuming there isn't a God, only to find out there is. That's all fine and dandy, except one doesn't get to choose what one believes. Believe me, I'd much rather believe in an utopian afterlife than an infinite unconsciousness. Unfortunately, I can't have it that way.
Red/YellowSalvaged from archive21 Jul 2007, 10:38
After this thread, I find it very unlikely that atheists are limited to 5% of the US population. Edit: "If i have an idea of perfection then a perfect being must exist as its cause....the perfect being=God" Is there an expansion to that? Because currently that argument expressed in that form is deeply damaged by a non-sequitur and a lack of justification for its assertions.
AllisterFiendSalvaged from archive21 Jul 2007, 18:14
Believing there is no God gives me more room for belief in family, people, love, truth, beauty, sex, Jell-O and all the other things I can prove and that make this life the best life I will ever have. :1orglaugh::xyxthumbs:
JegarSalvaged from archive21 Jul 2007, 19:49
When i die i die, and that's not becuase of no fucking god
Haseknumber39Salvaged from archive21 Jul 2007, 20:13
After this thread, I find it very unlikely that atheists are limited to 5% of the US population. Edit: "If i have an idea of perfection then a perfect being must exist as its cause....the perfect being=God" Is there an expansion to that? Because currently that argument expressed in that form is deeply damaged by a non-sequitur and a lack of justification for its assertions. AND everyone says im a post whore for bringing up old stuff
jabaSalvaged from archive21 Jul 2007, 22:20
Believing there is no God gives me more room for belief in family, people, love, truth, beauty, sex, Jell-O and all the other things I can prove and that make this life the best life I will ever have. :1orglaugh::xyxthumbs:Belief is not faith. You need to earn faith. Good post.
amaizenblueSalvaged from archive21 Jul 2007, 22:39
Believing there is no God gives me more room for belief in family, people, love, truth, beauty, sex, Jell-O and all the other things I can prove and that make this life the best life I will ever have. :1orglaugh::xyxthumbs: You forgot beer. ;) That one has to be named individually, and not lumped in with "all the other things." heh:xyxthumbs:
jabaSalvaged from archive21 Jul 2007, 22:44
You forgot beer. ;) That one has to be named individually, and not lumped in with "all the other things." heh:xyxthumbs:He doesn't drink beer. Beer is for 'adults' ain't it? :D
BorroSalvaged from archive22 Jul 2007, 00:00
I R T3H ATHi3sT !!!!!111!!!!!!!!!!!!!1!!
jabaSalvaged from archive22 Jul 2007, 00:06
I R T3H ATHi3sT !!!!!111!!!!!!!!!!!!!1!!Yeh right! Whatever. Why? :confused:
BorroSalvaged from archive22 Jul 2007, 00:12
Because I don't believe in fairy tales?
jabaSalvaged from archive22 Jul 2007, 01:24
Because I don't believe in fairy tales?Not all non-believers are Atheists. Atheism is a practice which is in conflict with religion. I have no such conflict - do you?
BorroSalvaged from archive22 Jul 2007, 01:46
I think you confuse "irreligious" and "anti-religious" with Atheism. Please learn the difference before you attempt to get into this with me. a·the·ist (http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/amacr.gifhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/… n. One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods. So YES all NON believers are Atheists. People that question the existence of God are ...........<drum roll please>.............Agnostic. In the words of my favorite movie Snatch ~Avi -Speak English to me, Tony. I thought this country spawned the fucking language, and so far nobody seems to speak it. ~
Josh85Salvaged from archive22 Jul 2007, 03:27
I'm Agnostic... I don't really know the answers so I don't come to any final conclusions about it.. I just keep myself open minded.
amaizenblueSalvaged from archive22 Jul 2007, 08:11
He doesn't drink beer. Beer is for 'adults' ain't it? :D Incorrect, sir. Beer is for everyone. ;)
jabaSalvaged from archive22 Jul 2007, 10:32
Not all non-believers are Atheists. Atheism is a practice which is in conflict with religion.So YES all NON believers are Atheists. Buddhism for example. Some atheists believe in the nonexistence of all Gods; others limit their atheism to specific Gods, such as the Christian God, rather than making flat-out denials. "You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity." Bullet tooth Tony. :1bluewinky:
BorroSalvaged from archive22 Jul 2007, 11:15
Buddhism for example. Some atheists believe in the nonexistence of all Gods; others limit their atheism to specific Gods, such as the Christian God, rather than making flat-out denials. Buddists do not believe in a god. "Well you're plenty fucking stupid I'll give you that." Avi :xyxthumbs:
gforceukSalvaged from archive22 Jul 2007, 11:51
There is More Truth in 'The Life Of Brian' than there is in the fairytale that they call the bible..
footballbatSalvaged from archive22 Jul 2007, 12:23
Jehovah akbar!!!!
footballbatSalvaged from archive22 Jul 2007, 12:25
There is More Truth in 'The Life Of Brian' than there is in the fairytale that they call the bible.. Then explain why Monty Python put out 'The Life of Brian', and not 'Jesus Christ Lust for Glory':xyxthumbs:
MightyTinySalvaged from archive22 Jul 2007, 16:13
I'm making this thread because of the Bible is BS thread. I'm just curious here to see how many and who is an athiest here. Then I would like to know what made you become an athiest if you are one. Was it a gradual thing? Did you just wake up one day and decide you were athiest? Etc. If you aren't an athiest I would like to know your thoughts on athiesm or athiests. Myself? I'm not an athiest. I believe in God and that's ok. I really have no problem with your normal, real athiests. The ones that make me mad are the ones that get bent out of shape for little things. Like saying "under god" in the Pledge of Allegiance. Is it really that big of a deal? It's just a few words, if you really don't like it, don't say it. It isn't as though I'm forcing you to believe in God, it's simply a part of our history. I don't want that changed. I guess what I really mean to say is that I hate those people who are so outspoken about it, like they need everyone to know that they're an athiest. It makes me believe that these people are fake. Posers, if you will. In my experience other REAL athiests don't really have a problem with it. They're just like, "Yeah, that's ok I just won't say it. It's not a big deal." That's just my opinion. Other than that I really don't have a problem, it's a free country. I am an agnostic atheist, which is what the great majority (if not all) of atheists are - an agnostic atheist is someone who acknowledges the difference between knowledge and belief - I cannot KNOW that there is no god, but given what I do know, what I've learned and what I've contemplated, I don't believe there is such a thing as a god or gods. The great misconception about atheism is that atheists claim that there absolutely is no god, and that's it - that they are absolutely certain. I do not know a single atheist that believes that. Even the "arch-atheist" as he's been named mostly by Christians, Richard Dawkins, says that such an absolute position would be absurd. But now I'm in danger of getting a little side tracked from what I wanted to address in your post (there's a TON on this thread that I'd like to respond to, but I'd end up writing a book. :) ) Here's what struck out to me, in what you said: The ones that make me mad are the ones that get bent out of shape for little things. Like saying "under god" in the Pledge of Allegiance. Is it really that big of a deal? It's just a few words, if you really don't like it, don't say it. It isn't as though I'm forcing you to believe in God, it's simply a part of our history. I don't want that changed. I can see this annoyance at Ahteists "nit-picking" on such "small things" among many Christians, and I can only imagine that this annoyance is due to the REASON why atheists raise such issues never having been truly, well explained to you. Because the alternative - total lack of compassion and the ability to empathise - is something I cannot believe is afflicting such a great number of people. First, to correct you on something - the "under God" is part of your quite recent history only - it was added to the pledge of alliegence in the 50's. The original form did not include any mention of God, because that would have conflicted with spirit of religious freedom, which the constitution guarantees. So if you TRULY want to preserve historical tradition in the pledge of alliegence, you'd want it restored to it's original form, rather than preserve this new - only half a century old - modification. But this is somewhat of a tecnicality, besides the point I want to make - I want to explain WHY it IS a big deal that there is "under god" in the pledge; why it isn't just nitpicking, or attention seeking. To see why, put yourself in the shoes of an atheist in the Bible Belt of the United states - in fact, to make it more clear, let's create this hypothetical situation: Imagine that the proportions of atheists and Christians would be reversed in the States - that the great majority would be atheists, and that in what is now the Bible Belt, atheism had the same prominence as Christianity now has. Now imagine being a Christian in such a community - and sending your kid to a public school where Christians are a tiny minority. Imagine further that in this hypothetical society, atheists had a holy book that they'd all view as containing timeless truth. And that that holy book described non-atheists as liars and deceivers, and said that there was not one good among non-atheists. Some obscure passages even suggest that non-atheists should be killed. In this "atheist-belt" area in this hypothetical USA, the atheist holy book would be taken more seriously and literally than elsewere, and such beliefs as "Christians are immoral", "Christians are evil", and "Christians are devil worshipers", and many, many more, would be quite common. Now, further, imagine that in the 50's, powerful atheists lobbies had pushed through a change in the pledge of alliegence to add "in the absense of god", where "under god" now is. And this is the place where you, as a Christian, live, and try and raise your family according to your values - the constitution is the only thing that protects you from outright open percecution. Now, of course, your kid could choose to stay silent and not say the "in the absense of god" part. So no biggie, right? Wrong. By staying silent, your kid would identify himself as a Christian. This, in a place, dominated by atheists, many of whom believe that a Christian=evil, liar, immoral, deceiver. those few little words "in the absense of god", would put your child into a position where he has to choose between publically denouncing what he is, OR announcing his faith, and subjecting himself to be ostracized, to paint a target on his back for every bully, and every "richeous minded" pupil of the school to pick on. In the U.S. there used to be Bible reading in schools too, where pupils had the opportunity to opt out, and this was ruled unconstitutional. What was said in reference to that case applies as well to the "under god" issue. I'm paraphrasing something Edward Tabash said in a lecture I heard: "It's not the purpose of Government to force a six year old to exert uncommon courage to say 'well, my family and I are non-believers', and then have to answer to peers on the playground." The "under god" is wrong, because it puts children into that position. In many parts of the US that's serious - in more religiously tolerant places being openly atheist may not carry much of a stigma. But in other places, being openly atheist will subject you to unconscionable treatment. An atheist - just like a Christian, or a Buddhist, or any other human being, should have the option to decide for themselves whether they want to keep their beliefs private, or be outspoken, and expose themselves to any conseqences that might carry. So to me, this is simply a matter of decency - of recognizing the situation from the perspective of the party that is most affected by it. To you, as a member of the dominant religion in the US, the "under god" part may seem trivial, and if you don't really put yourself in the shoes of the atheist, it might seem nitpiking (and here some of the blame is with the atheist if they don't express their reasons clearly enough). But to the atheist living in such conditions where coming out as an atheist publically can carry far reaching consequences, those couple of little words can be the difference between an opportunity at a normal life and a life as an outcast. Here's an interesting, and rather tragic account of what can happen, when a child is forced to make the choise between denying her beliefs or openly outing herself as an atheist. You may not agree with what the people in this piece believe, but you should have no trouble agreeing that what happened was wrong: sTRDRP2n4Sk So if those little words are just a trivial issue to YOU, then isn't it reasonable and trivial to drop them out, if they cleary cause such suffering to some? Isn't this a matter of compassion, justice, and freedom? I see no nitpicking here.
Red/YellowSalvaged from archive22 Jul 2007, 16:18
AND everyone says im a post whore for bringing up old stuff It is either that or I get attacked for not using the search function; 85 posts since December 2005 is hardly being a "post whore" ... I mention this as it would seem that the statistics cited by many seem to be rather flawed. Even if this demographic would favour those who are atheists, it would still seem rather unlikely that atheists are limited to 5% of the population. Either we realise that the methods used for polling such things throughout western societies are fundamentally flawed, or we continue to allow politicians cater for a minority based on the illusion that they are the majority. And to those arguing about the meaning of Atheism; a means without, theism means a belief in god. Therefore those who are atheists merely lack a belief in a god; this includes some Buddhists, some agnostics etc.. However when most people mention atheism, they mean something along the lines of "one who lacks a belief in any supernatural entity", which includes a deity from a specific mono-theistic religion.
UncoverRealitySalvaged from archive22 Jul 2007, 16:36
There is More Truth in 'The Life Of Brian' than there is in the fairytale that they call the bible.. Does it make you feel special when you use big red font? :eek7:
jabaSalvaged from archive22 Jul 2007, 16:58
Buddists do not believe in a god.Should read - Buddhists do not believe in an absolute God. What else can you teach me then Borro? http://www.circle-of-light.com/Mantras/GnG1.html "Should I call you Bullet? Tooth?" Avi "You can call me Susan if it makes you happy!" Bullet Tooth Tony :D
BorroSalvaged from archive22 Jul 2007, 17:33
So, you think Buddhism is Polytheistic? Is that your view on Buddhism? "Gods" that are mentioned or what you linked are merely supporters and followers of the Enlightened Human Being. Therefore, they are not GODS as in Greek Mythology for example. Buddhism is, more of a moral philosophy, an ethical way of life that can have improvement on ones state. The late Dr. Suzuki is considered one of the greatest teachers of Zen Buddhism, said about his concept of God: "If God after making the world puts Himself outside it, He is no longer God. If He separates Himself from the world or wants to separate Himself, He is not God. The world is not the world when it is separated from God. God must be in the world and the world in God." ( D. T. Suzuki, The Field of Zen p. 16.) What else can you teach me then Borro? You've been taught. :xyxthumbs: Also, as far as "In God We Trust" being added to money http://www.treas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-go… The Congress passed the Act of April 22 (http://www.treas.gov/education/history/events/04-apr.shtm… 1864. This legislation changed the composition of the one-cent coin and authorized the minting of the two-cent coin. The Mint Director was directed to develop the designs for these coins for final approval of the Secretary. IN GOD WE TRUST first appeared on the 1864 two-cent coin. (Avi arrives in London) Avi: Shut up and sit down, you big, bald fuck. I don't like leaving my own country, Doug, and I especially don't like leaving it for anything less then warm sandy beaches, and cocktails with little straw hats. Doug the Head: We've got sandy beaches... Avi: So? Who the fuck wants to see 'em? :1orglaugh:
jabaSalvaged from archive22 Jul 2007, 18:13
So, you think Buddhism is Polytheistic? Is that your view on Buddhism? "Gods" that are mentioned or what you linked are merely supporters and followers of the EnlightenedBuddhism is, more of a moral philosophy, an ethical way of life that can have improvement on ones state.Back to my original post.Not all non-believers are Atheists. Atheism is a practice which is in conflict with religion.Buddhism can be interpreted in many ways as can atheist/agnostic viewpoints. You seem to enjoy playing around with theology and you can see how easy it is to trip up on the bones of religion our ancestors threw at the ground. I agree with Avi - "Yeah. Don't go to England!" :1orglaugh:
Rocker KidSalvaged from archive22 Jul 2007, 18:29
I know a girl who is praticing Buddhism, she seems really happy with it all. And most members of "the Church of Satan" are actually Atheists, just going along with some ideas of Satan.... kind of like "live everyday to the fullest". I don't know mugh about it though....
BorroSalvaged from archive22 Jul 2007, 18:31
you can see how easy it is to trip up on the bones of religion our ancestors threw at the ground. Well played :rasta:
libtech158Salvaged from archive22 Jul 2007, 19:49
ya know what sucks. if there is a god, all you athiests are going to hell. ROFL!
amaizenblueSalvaged from archive22 Jul 2007, 20:29
I am an agnostic atheist, which is what the great majority (if not all) of atheists are - an agnostic atheist is someone who acknowledges the difference between knowledge and belief - I cannot KNOW that there is no god, but given what I do know, what I've learned and what I've contemplated, I don't believe there is such a thing as a god or gods. The great misconception about atheism is that atheists claim that there absolutely is no god, and that's it - that they are absolutely certain. I do not know a single atheist that believes that. Even the "arch-atheist" as he's been named mostly by Christians, Richard Dawkins, says that such an absolute position would be absurd. But now I'm in danger of getting a little side tracked from what I wanted to address in your post (there's a TON on this thread that I'd like to respond to, but I'd end up writing a book. :) ) Here's what struck out to me, in what you said: I can see this annoyance at Ahteists "nit-picking" on such "small things" among many Christians, and I can only imagine that this annoyance is due to the REASON why atheists raise such issues never having been truly, well explained to you. Because the alternative - total lack of compassion and the ability to empathise - is something I cannot believe is afflicting such a great number of people. First, to correct you on something - the "under God" is part of your quite recent history only - it was added to the pledge of alliegence in the 50's. The original form did not include any mention of God, because that would have conflicted with spirit of religious freedom, which the constitution guarantees. So if you TRULY want to preserve historical tradition in the pledge of alliegence, you'd want it restored to it's original form, rather than preserve this new - only half a century old - modification. But this is somewhat of a tecnicality, besides the point I want to make - I want to explain WHY it IS a big deal that there is "under god" in the pledge; why it isn't just nitpicking, or attention seeking. To see why, put yourself in the shoes of an atheist in the Bible Belt of the United states - in fact, to make it more clear, let's create this hypothetical situation: Imagine that the proportions of atheists and Christians would be reversed in the States - that the great majority would be atheists, and that in what is now the Bible Belt, atheism had the same prominence as Christianity now has. Now imagine being a Christian in such a community - and sending your kid to a public school where Christians are a tiny minority. Imagine further that in this hypothetical society, atheists had a holy book that they'd all view as containing timeless truth. And that that holy book described non-atheists as liars and deceivers, and said that there was not one good among non-atheists. Some obscure passages even suggest that non-atheists should be killed. In this "atheist-belt" area in this hypothetical USA, the atheist holy book would be taken more seriously and literally than elsewere, and such beliefs as "Christians are immoral", "Christians are evil", and "Christians are devil worshipers", and many, many more, would be quite common. Now, further, imagine that in the 50's, powerful atheists lobbies had pushed through a change in the pledge of alliegence to add "in the absense of god", where "under god" now is. And this is the place where you, as a Christian, live, and try and raise your family according to your values - the constitution is the only thing that protects you from outright open percecution. Now, of course, your kid could choose to stay silent and not say the "in the absense of god" part. So no biggie, right? Wrong. By staying silent, your kid would identify himself as a Christian. This, in a place, dominated by atheists, many of whom believe that a Christian=evil, liar, immoral, deceiver. those few little words "in the absense of god", would put your child into a position where he has to choose between publically denouncing what he is, OR announcing his faith, and subjecting himself to be ostracized, to paint a target on his back for every bully, and every "richeous minded" pupil of the school to pick on. In the U.S. there used to be Bible reading in schools too, where pupils had the opportunity to opt out, and this was ruled unconstitutional. What was said in reference to that case applies as well to the "under god" issue. I'm paraphrasing something Edward Tabash said in a lecture I heard: "It's not the purpose of Government to force a six year old to exert uncommon courage to say 'well, my family and I are non-believers', and then have to answer to peers on the playground." The "under god" is wrong, because it puts children into that position. In many parts of the US that's serious - in more religiously tolerant places being openly atheist may not carry much of a stigma. But in other places, being openly atheist will subject you to unconscionable treatment. An atheist - just like a Christian, or a Buddhist, or any other human being, should have the option to decide for themselves whether they want to keep their beliefs private, or be outspoken, and expose themselves to any conseqences that might carry. So to me, this is simply a matter of decency - of recognizing the situation from the perspective of the party that is most affected by it. To you, as a member of the dominant religion in the US, the "under god" part may seem trivial, and if you don't really put yourself in the shoes of the atheist, it might seem nitpiking (and here some of the blame is with the atheist if they don't express their reasons clearly enough). But to the atheist living in such conditions where coming out as an atheist publically can carry far reaching consequences, those couple of little words can be the difference between an opportunity at a normal life and a life as an outcast. Here's an interesting, and rather tragic account of what can happen, when a child is forced to make the choise between denying her beliefs or openly outing herself as an atheist. You may not agree with what the people in this piece believe, but you should have no trouble agreeing that what happened was wrong: sTRDRP2n4Sk So if those little words are just a trivial issue to YOU, then isn't it reasonable and trivial to drop them out, if they cleary cause such suffering to some? Isn't this a matter of compassion, justice, and freedom? I see no nitpicking here. At first, I thought you may have gone a bit "over the top" with your hypothetical United States; that atheism is not similarly treated in the real world. I think that is because of where I live. Oregon is a pretty liberal state and I don't see your story as being particularly analogous. However, I was then reminded of the time I spent in Utah as a child. we were a Christian family in a Mormon world. It was the worst time in my life. I was teased and bullied, and even my teachers would single me out. One teacher would constantly berate me for my poor penmanship, and even throw blackboard erasers at me. I think we forget sometimes how traumatic these kinds of things can be for kids. Children can be cruel. Whereas adults, for the most part, will at least bite their tongue out of maturity, kids have no such compunction. And there are, of course many adults who are just as cruel, my teacher for example, but we are more apt to shrug it off when we become adults ourselves. At any rate, I can believe that there are areas of the Bible belt that would/could treat atheists just as poorly as my situation in Utah, and indeed as poorly as your hypothetical United States.
BorroSalvaged from archive22 Jul 2007, 20:44
ya know what sucks. if there is a god, all you athiests are going to hell. ROFL! You're right, it would suck. It's just too bad that I can't FORCE myself to believe in something that I see as false. Can you, if you are religious, make yourself not believe because I say you are wrong to think the way you do? Didn't think so. :smokin:
gforceukSalvaged from archive22 Jul 2007, 21:07
Does it make you feel special when you use big red font? :eek7: Nope .. jsut superior to the nutjobs that cant face the fact that there is nothing after you die...
MightyTinySalvaged from archive22 Jul 2007, 21:09
At any rate, I can believe that there are areas of the Bible belt that would/could treat atheists just as poorly as my situation in Utah, and indeed as poorly as your hypothetical United States. And that was indeed the point I wanted to get across - I do not claim that atheists are treated as they are in some places in the US in the entire country, or the world at large - and I'm fortunate to live in a country where religion is considered pretty much everyone's private business, and atheists aren't discriminated against (I believe that about half of Finns are atheists and/or agnostics). The important thing is that it should be everybody's personal choise - not forced upon them - whether to announce their beliefs to the world or not. When there are religious elements in school seremonies or practices, where non-believers can "choose to opt out", that forces the choise on the non-believer: either announce your non-belief (and, in some places, risk becoming a victim of discrimination or even open persecution), or play along and go against your beliefs. This is an unreasonable choise to impose on an adult, much less a child.
Snuff.Salvaged from archive22 Jul 2007, 21:18
To become atheist you can't just chastise the idea of a 'creator': you have to firmly believe that you are alone; that your existence is the only window into what is real. In short, you have to at heart become a solipsist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsist). You have to believe that all notions of a God are manifested within us epistemically: and that even within this manifestation there is no room for an interpretation like deism. ...Thought I'd try to find a second wind for this thread. :D
MightyTinySalvaged from archive22 Jul 2007, 21:40
To become atheist you can't just chastise the idea of a 'creator': you have to firmly believe that you are alone; that your existence is the only window into what is real. In short, you have to at heart become a solipsist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsist). You have to believe that all notions of a God are manifested within us epistemically: and that even within this manifestation there is no room for an interpretation like deism. ...Thought I'd try to find a second wind for this thread. :D Didn't know we were done with the first wind. :D Anyway, a Solipsist doubts the existence of everything outside his mind, while to be an atheist, you only have to disbelieve the claims of the existence of one particular entity (or one kind of entity) - god or gods. Moreover, there's nothing in atheism that would dictate the strength of conviction - a person who, on the balance of evidence, thinks that there are no gods with the same level of conviction he thinks it will rain tomorrow (because he saw the forcast on the telly), is still an atheist for his lack of belief in god or gods - as much as the person who'd bet his entire fortune and life on the non-existence of deities. Most, if not all atheists are agnostic atheists, meaning that they do not claim to know that there are no gods, but that they don't believe there are any. It is really not a sustainable position to claim to know that there are no gods, except with reference to particular gods who's definitions are self-contraditory.
BorroSalvaged from archive22 Jul 2007, 21:47
Agreed. As I don't "believe" in God, I cannot for 100% certainty say that there is no God. This makes me Agnostic/Atheist in my beliefs on the subject. Nobody can say in all honesty that there is or isn't a God, you go on belief and faith. Nobody that I am aware of was around during Creation, if so I would have to believe what he/she said because they and only they would know.
AllisterFiendSalvaged from archive22 Jul 2007, 21:50
I'm an atheist without getting into philosophy. In reality, everyone is an agnostic, aren't they?
Snuff.Salvaged from archive22 Jul 2007, 22:02
Didn't know we were done with the first wind. :D Anyway, a Solipsist doubts the existence of everything outside his mind, while to be an atheist, you only have to disbelieve the claims of the existence of one particular entity (or one kind of entity) - god or gods. But that's so narrow a definition! Has atheism been reduced to refuting the mantras of individual faiths? I'm saying that I have many Gods. I see God when a model I've created within my mind explains an occurrence which I've experienced. The only people I've known to dispute this definition of faith are atheists and fundamentalists. Apologies if that's obscure, I'm pretty addled ATM. :p :drinkup::rasta:
pikeySalvaged from archive22 Jul 2007, 22:24
Buddhism for exampleThe old man Jaba even looks like Buddha or maybe somebody rubbed a lamp! http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e42/jabathut/Picture1.jpg :1orglaugh:
MightyTinySalvaged from archive22 Jul 2007, 22:25
But that's so narrow a definition! Has atheism been reduced to refuting the mantras of individual faiths? I'm saying that I have many Gods. I see God when a model I've created within my mind explains an occurrence which I've experienced. The only people I've known to dispute this definition of faith are atheists and fundamentalists. Apologies if that's obscure, I'm pretty addled ATM. :p :drinkup::rasta: Well, if you define god as "a model within my brain", then of course I'm not an atheist with respect to that definition. Just like, if you define god=banana, I wouldn't doubt the existence of your god. (might eat him though :D ). But then again, I've never seen the sense in re-defining words to be so alien to the commonly understood meaning as to cause only confusion and missunderstanding.
AllisterFiendSalvaged from archive22 Jul 2007, 22:34
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e42/jabathut/Picture1.jpg http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/8026/untitled2cn0.jpg
jabaSalvaged from archive23 Jul 2007, 18:03
Cheeky fuckers! :smokin:
Snuff.Salvaged from archive25 Jul 2007, 09:16
Well, if you define god as "a model within my brain", then of course I'm not an atheist with respect to that definition. Just like, if you define god=banana, I wouldn't doubt the existence of your god. (might eat him though :D ). But then again, I've never seen the sense in re-defining words to be so alien to the commonly understood meaning as to cause only confusion and missunderstanding. ...Anybody got a ladder they can lend me. :D I suppose (and here I must part with the knowledge that posting while under the influence of alcohol, weed and benzodiazepines is counterproductive :p) that I'm asking for a compromise. Atheists disbelieve the notion of God, based on the notion presented to us by theists that God is an entity. ...I mean that's just nuts. I'm willing to believe God is pretty much anything - just don't tell me it has any notions of how we should behave in our lives. I'm even willing to stretch that it possesses a belief system that we'll do well by following. For example, the physical properties of the universe correspond with various laws which we'd do well to explore and to capitalise upon in practical applications. In this veign, I reapproach my original point: atheists need far more challenging parameters by which to justify their position than "God is a man on a cloud". ...Speaking as an atheist, in case I've confused anybody.
footballbatSalvaged from archive25 Jul 2007, 11:11
atheists need far more challenging parameters by which to justify their position than "God is a man on a cloud". ...Speaking as an atheist, in case I've confused anybody. I've always thought the belief that 'God is some invisible man, looking down at you from the clouds', was a rather childish view of the Supreme Being. As far as I've figured out, God just is. His response to Moses, 'I am that I am', is not indicative of 'a man on a cloud', it speaks more to something that always was, and forever shall be.
Snuff.Salvaged from archive25 Jul 2007, 11:26
I've always thought the belief that 'God is some invisible man, looking down at you from the clouds', was a rather childish view of the Supreme Being. As far as I've figured out, God just is. His response to Moses, 'I am that I am', is not indicative of 'a man on a cloud', it speaks more to something that always was, and forever shall be. I've italicised the key words in your post. God remains a discernible entity, in your opinion: 'a man on a cloud', so to speak. ;)
footballbatSalvaged from archive25 Jul 2007, 11:34
Actually, the key word is, is. I don't mean to sound esoteric, but, to me, God is the isness of all that is. If that makes no sense, I understand. It took me a while to reach my miniscule grasp of God's nature.
MightyTinySalvaged from archive25 Jul 2007, 12:11
...Anybody got a ladder they can lend me. :D I suppose (and here I must part with the knowledge that posting while under the influence of alcohol, weed and benzodiazepines is counterproductive :p) that I'm asking for a compromise. Atheists disbelieve the notion of God, based on the notion presented to us by theists that God is an entity. ...I mean that's just nuts. I'm willing to believe God is pretty much anything - just don't tell me it has any notions of how we should behave in our lives. I'm even willing to stretch that it possesses a belief system that we'll do well by following. For example, the physical properties of the universe correspond with various laws which we'd do well to explore and to capitalise upon in practical applications. In this veign, I reapproach my original point: atheists need far more challenging parameters by which to justify their position than "God is a man on a cloud". ...Speaking as an atheist, in case I've confused anybody. And I believe that trying to stretch the definition of "god" beyond all recognition of the genrally understood term doesn't make sense - if you water down "god" to a thing without even any form of cognition, simply use it as a lable for something like "the universe", then that just confuses matters, without adding anything useful to the mix. Why call "the universe" "god", when it already has a perfectly good name: "the universe"? Of course I'm not an atheist with respect to "gods" defined as something mundane and directly observable; I'm an atheist with respect to the idea of an eternally existing cognitive being, that predated everything else.
Snuff.Salvaged from archive25 Jul 2007, 12:21
Actually, the key word is, is. I don't mean to sound esoteric, but, to me, God is the isness of all that is. If that makes no sense, I understand. It took me a while to reach my miniscule grasp of God's nature. In attempting to define what you're talking about I'd ask you to differentiate your understanding of God from the karmic view of the universe which, for instance, Buddhists hold. Can you? Hindus talk about the Brahma which, too, has similar notions of karma and infinity. These, surely, are cultural embodiments of the Abrahamic religions' concept of 'God', are they not? "I am that I am" "The alpha and the omega" etcetera. Effectively, controversy only arises when people start arguing about who God spoke to and what it said. I have no time for that and I condemn those who partake in this kerfuffle as liars and betrayers of God.
Snuff.Salvaged from archive25 Jul 2007, 12:28
I'm an atheist with respect to the idea of an eternally existing cognitive being, that predated everything else. I'm trying to find religious people who think that way, too. :)
tgd_02Salvaged from archive25 Jul 2007, 14:26
no wait this bullshit thread was revived? lawl
footballbatSalvaged from archive27 Jul 2007, 13:26
In attempting to define what you're talking about I'd ask you to differentiate your understanding of God from the karmic view of the universe which, for instance, Buddhists hold. Can you? Hindus talk about the Brahma which, too, has similar notions of karma and infinity. These, surely, are cultural embodiments of the Abrahamic religions' concept of 'God', are they not? "I am that I am" "The alpha and the omega" etcetera. Effectively, controversy only arises when people start arguing about who God spoke to and what it said. I have no time for that and I condemn those who partake in this kerfuffle as liars and betrayers of God. In the Buddhist faith, there is no godhead figure, and life is cyclical. After varying cycles of birth, life, death, and re-birth, if you relinquish your attachment to desire and self, you can attain Nirvana. In the Hindu faith, there are many different gods, and life is cyclical. Through selfless acts, pure thoughts, and absolute devotion, you're reborn at a higher level, or achieve enlightenment. These both appear to be selling the same soap, with different packaging. The basics of both are; the self, releasing the self, with only the help of self. My understanding of God, and infinity, falls in line with the Christian ethos. I believe that the soul is eternal, I don't think that you're given multiple chances to 'get it right'. You either realize you're just as fucked up as everybody else, and ask God to forgive you, and help you get it right, or you just continue being the same asshole. I hope this answers what you were asking. If not, I'm sure you'll let me know. One thing I would like to know, how can you condemn someone for betraying a God you don't believe in?
libtech158Salvaged from archive27 Jul 2007, 17:48
your only option is to burn in hell. sounds like fun.
Snuff.Salvaged from archive27 Jul 2007, 18:09
One thing I would like to know, how can you condemn someone for betraying a God you don't believe in? I am, roughly speaking, a transcendentalist. The greatness of 'God' (and yes, Mighty - I will twist the definition regardless of rationality, I'm afraid :D) is defined by the harmoniousness of my existence and the harmony which I exist in, socially speaking. Most interpretations of the tenets of organized religion upset this harmony, and therefore betrays God. Furthermore, empathy is my single-most valued trait and I feel that the Christian ethos and most other Abrahamic religions excuse a lack of empathy by allowing people to appeal to something intangible. It creates the illusion of a lonely world where your 'soul' is your responsibility alone.
MightyTinySalvaged from archive27 Jul 2007, 21:34
I am, roughly speaking, a transcendentalist. The greatness of 'God' (and yes, Mighty - I will twist the definition regardless of rationality, I'm afraid :D) is defined by the harmoniousness of my existence and the harmony which I exist in, socially speaking. Most interpretations of the tenets of organized religion upset this harmony, and therefore betrays God. Furthermore, empathy is my single-most valued trait and I feel that the Christian ethos and most other Abrahamic religions excuse a lack of empathy by allowing people to appeal to something intangible. It creates the illusion of a lonely world where your 'soul' is your responsibility alone. I don't think I could go for Transcendentalism, but I might, if I chose to, call myself a naturalistic pantheist - the only reason I don't, is because I find the term unnecessarily confusing. "a naturalistically thinking agnostic atheist" conveys much more information on my position, without risking missunderstandings. But I could easily sign the "belief statement" of naturalistic patheism ( http://www.pantheism.net/manifest.htm ): 1. We revere and celebrate the Universe as the totality of being, past, present and future. It is self-organizing, ever-evolving and inexhaustibly diverse. Its overwhelming power, beauty and fundamental mystery compel the deepest human reverence and wonder. 2. All matter, energy, and life are an interconnected unity of which we are an inseparable part. We rejoice in our existence and seek to participate ever more deeply in this unity through knowledge, celebration, meditation, empathy, love, ethical action and art. 3. We are an integral part of Nature, which we should cherish, revere and preserve in all its magnificent beauty and diversity. We should strive to live in harmony with Nature locally and globally. We acknowledge the inherent value of all life, human and non-human, and strive to treat all living beings with compassion and respect. 4. All humans are equal centers of awareness of the Universe and nature, and all deserve a life of equal dignity and mutual respect. To this end we support and work towards freedom, democracy, justice, and non-discrimination, and a world community based on peace, sustainable ways of life, full respect for human rights and an end to poverty. 5. There is a single kind of substance, energy/matter, which is vibrant and infinitely creative in all its forms. Body and mind are indivisibly united. 6. We see death as the return to nature of our elements, and the end of our existence as individuals. The forms of "afterlife" available to humans are natural ones, in the natural world. Our actions, our ideas and memories of us live on, according to what we do in our lives. Our genes live on in our families, and our elements are endlessly recycled in nature. 7. We honor reality, and keep our minds open to the evidence of the senses and of science's unending quest for deeper understanding. These are our best means of coming to know the Universe, and on them we base our aesthetic and religious feelings about reality. 8. Every individual has direct access through perception, emotion and meditation to ultimate reality, which is the Universe and Nature. There is no need for mediation by priests, gurus or revealed scriptures. 9. We uphold the separation of religion and state, and the universal human right of freedom of religion. We recognize the freedom of all pantheists to express and celebrate their beliefs, as individuals or in groups, in any non-harmful ritual, symbol or vocabulary that is meaningful to them. A Pantheist is just an atheist in touch with his inner hippy. :rasta: I share with that world view the deep appreciation of the beauty of nature, and the Universe - all the more remarkable for the fact that so much of it is accessible to inquisitive minds, unburdened by fear of divine retribution as a response to any possible honestly mistaken metaphysical conclusions.
UncoverRealitySalvaged from archive27 Jul 2007, 22:04
Naturalistic patheism? Not come across that before but I'll need to check out the website tomorrow Sweet post btw :xyxthumbs:
MightyTinySalvaged from archive27 Jul 2007, 22:33
Naturalistic patheism? Not come across that before but I'll need to check out the website tomorrow Sweet post btw :xyxthumbs: Thanks. :xyxthumbs: Kinda stumbled on that myself by accident a while back. If I had to pick a "theism", it'd be pantheism. But I'll just stick to atheism as my chosen lable, methinks. :D
AllisterFiendSalvaged from archive27 Jul 2007, 22:58
Wow people step back into the real world.:1orglaugh: What the fuck are you guys talking about? :eek7: I've tried to read over those posts about 5 times and it still doesn't make any sense.
QuackersSalvaged from archive27 Jul 2007, 22:59
I'm Agnostic. I don't rule out the possible existance of a God, but I find it very very unlikably that there is one. So I live my life as though there isn't a God, and I find those that are part of an organised religion (go to church etc) to be completely wasting their time. I find people that try and waste my time with God (mormons etc) complete cunts.
MightyTinySalvaged from archive27 Jul 2007, 23:11
I'm Agnostic. I don't rule out the possible existance of a God, but I find it very very unlikably that there is one. So I live my life as though there isn't a God, and I find those that are part of an organised religion (go to church etc) to be completely wasting their time. I find people that try and waste my time with God (mormons etc) complete cunts. Most, if not all, atheists are agnostics too. Agnostisism is on a completely different axis than theism-atheism - agnosticism is contrasted by gnosticism. The theist-atheist axel describes state of BELIEF, while the gnostic-agnostic axel describes whether you claim to KNOW. One deals with belief, the other with claims of knowledge. So to answer "I'm an agnostic" to the question "do you believe in god?", is kinda like answering "yes, I've got a watch", when someone asks you for the time. The great missconception is that belief is necessarily DOGMATIC belief, or firm belief, or faith - and that is why, I think, those who describe themselves only as agnostics (rather than agnostic atheists or agnostic theists) are so reluctant to answer the question that was asked: do you believe? and rather answer the question: do you think you know? That reluctance is missguided - belief has levels, and how you treat your beliefs is another question alltoghether. If you don't hold your beliefs to be absolute, and freely admit to your falliablility, ready to change them the moment the balance of evidence shifts the other way, then there is nothing wrong about that belief. It is only dogmatic belief, the absolute belief of a gnostic, who confuses belief with knowledge, that is divisive, arrogant and unatractive, and potentially dangerous. I like to ask those that describe themselves only as agnostics to try this thought experiment: Imagine that you are put in a strange game show, and you have no choise but to participate. You are asked a single question: Does there exist a god, or gods? (god being defined by the traditional notion of a powerful, personal cognitive supernatural beeing) Now if you get the answer right, you get a million dollars... but if you get it wrong, you'll be burnt at the stake. (If you refuse to answer, you'll be brutally bitch-slapped, and then burnt at the stake. :smokin: ) Now the question for the "pure" agnostic is, would you be content to decide your answer by flipping a coin? I bet that the great majority of "pure" agnostics would not be content with that, but would rather answer one way or the other themselves. Which way you lean, describes the state of your belief - even if it is just a very weak, tentative belief. That doesn't make you any less agnostic though.
AllisterFiendSalvaged from archive27 Jul 2007, 23:25
Like I said in an earlier post, I think everyone is an agnostic if we're really going to get down to it. And without getting into philosophy I am 100% atheist. I can't prove to you that god doesn't exist but I can disprove almost any religion.
BorroSalvaged from archive27 Jul 2007, 23:42
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." -Stephen Roberts
SolarBearSalvaged from archive28 Jul 2007, 00:49
ya know what sucks. if there is a god, all you athiests are going to hell. ROFL! Are you sure? What if there is a God, but It's extremely shy and wants to be left alone? What if It's insane, and It has decided to send anyone who does believe in It to hell, while rewarding anyone who doesn't?
libtech158Salvaged from archive28 Jul 2007, 05:49
Are you sure? What if there is a God, but It's extremely shy and wants to be left alone? What if It's insane, and It has decided to send anyone who does believe in It to hell, while rewarding anyone who doesn't? go with christ, bra. i'm sorry but you are retarded.
AllisterFiendSalvaged from archive28 Jul 2007, 06:14
go with christ, bra. i'm sorry but you are retarded. haha. ahahahaha. Oh! That wasn't a joke! You're serious! I'm sorry! lol:D
libtech158Salvaged from archive28 Jul 2007, 06:19
pos rep thisnigg?
BorroSalvaged from archive28 Jul 2007, 06:24
Wow, retarded you say? Who is the one that believes in a religion that has spawned from another religion (judism). Even people that actually knew Jesus wanted him to die because they did not and still do not believe that Jesus was the Mesiah. Christianity exists because of death, torture, and bloodshed. This from people in the Middle East.....2000+ years ago. Let me use your religion and Old Testament to show you how easy it is for humans to create a religion. Although I don't believe in God, I do feel that there is alot of historical benefit from the books of the OT and the NT. When Moses came down from Mount Sinai his brother Aaron had created a Golden Calf for which the Israelites started to worship. It happens that fast, and that easily. Remember the Hale Bopp Comet? David Koresh? Jonestown massacre? Read the Epic of Gilgamesh and then sit back and think.
SolarBearSalvaged from archive28 Jul 2007, 07:21
go with christ, bra. i'm sorry but you are retarded. I see. So when you said, "if there is a god, all you athiests are going to hell. ROFL!" what you actually meant was this: "If there is a God, and It resembles the Christian god more closely than any other god, and It doesn't like atheists, and Hell exists; then all you atheists are going there. ROFL!" While I agree with the logic of that statement, I think its premises are relatively unlikely. Have you ever considered the possibility that the "one true god" might actually be Odin or Jupiter or Quetzalcoatl or Kali, or some other deity that has a grudge against Christians because they have a history of persecuting Its followers? Oh, and don't call me "bra".
bytor666Salvaged from archive28 Jul 2007, 09:24
I had a discussion with a friend about this tonight. We both agree that our belief in a "God" or whatever u wanna call it is the entire universe. :drinkup: Not as a spiritual entity, but just the universe as a whole is the mighty one. :2twocents:
UnregisteredSexOffenderSalvaged from archive28 Jul 2007, 10:08
Oh, and don't call me "bra". http://www.exchainstoreclothing.co.uk/clothing/images/Mat… :1orglaugh:
BorroSalvaged from archive29 Jul 2007, 03:22
I had a discussion with a friend about this tonight. We both agree that our belief in a "God" or whatever u wanna call it is the entire universe. :drinkup: Not as a spiritual entity, but just the universe as a whole is the mighty one. :2twocents: I could probably buy into the theory that "God" is more of an "energy that is inside of everything" than an omnipitent being. I have heard this debate before, and I do see where he is coming from. My Biology teacher once told me when I asked him if he believed in God........I believe there is something, I just don't think it's what "religion" tells us that it is. Now going to church most of my childhood, I believed in God. After further study on my own, I turned away from religion. Religion is for people that feel the need for a reason why they are here, Church is like AA for drunks..I don't need a support group to feel what I think is right. The sad reality is that I have seen that...........we are no different than any other creature on this planet. We are not any more special than creatures that lived before us. Like I said before, we have the ability to "think/problem solve, and realise our own morality". Other creatures do not display this characteristic. Like I told another person here that questioned that idea........if I pull a gun on you will you be scared? Panic? If I pulled a gun on your fish...who he?? I know I'm a bit complicated to understand when I'm taking a few shots but the fact still remains..........Religion is and always has been a man made belief system. Religion has caused alot of death because people take it too seriously, and do not bend on what they "believe" about the universe around them.
Josh85Salvaged from archive6 Sept 2007, 22:37
I'm not an athiest but I think it's dumb to take "In God We Trust" off money, and taking "under God" out of the pledge. Those two phrases are part of the history of our country. It's not even a matter of religion really. But it IS a sign that in the past your country was backwards and stupid and believed in pixy fairy mermaids in the sky. Same goes for my country.. I hate how our politicians babble on that this is a "Christian" country. Get fucked keep religion out of countries kthx.
RaidenatorSalvaged from archive6 Sept 2007, 22:48
But it IS a sign that in the past your country was backwards and stupid and believed in pixy fairy mermaids in the sky. Same goes for my country.. I hate how our politicians babble on that this is a "Christian" country. Get fucked keep religion out of countries kthx. Jeez, old thread resurrected. Ironically, our country wasn't even founded by Christians. A majority of the founding fathers had no religion if I remember correctly. I just don't see what all the hubbub is about. It's just a few fucking words. I don't get pissed when people start talking about evolution. (No, I don't believe in creationism either). Just an example.
footballbatSalvaged from archive6 Sept 2007, 23:01
Ironically, our country wasn't even founded by Christians. A majority of the founding fathers had no religion if I remember correctly. I don't blame you for this stupidity. I do, however, blame the education system. Religious Affiliation of the Founding Fathers of the United States of America (http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html) The signers of the Declaration of Independence were a profoundly intelligent, religious and ethically-minded group. Four of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were current or former full-time preachers, and many more were the sons of clergymen. Other professions held by signers include lawyers, merchants, doctors and educators. These individuals, too, were for the most part active churchgoers and many contributed significantly to their churches both with contributions as well as their service as lay leaders. The signers were members of religious denominations at a rate that was significantly higher than average for the American Colonies during the late 1700s.
ceehound619Salvaged from archive6 Sept 2007, 23:06
They say that there really are no Atheist. I know from personal experience of a man who claimed to be an atheist who cried like a baby when he was dying, begging God to forgive him and let him live. God didn't do either. sorry.. IGNORANT statement... " god didnt do either"... you are NOT worthy to KNOW or even SPECULATE on what God DOES or DOESNT do.....stop putting your self on a pedastle.
HeyBuddySalvaged from archive6 Sept 2007, 23:32
WOW...this thread must be really old, but interesting. I believe in God, but I'm not the type to go to a church and have someone explain the Bible to me. A lot of people think that religion and science don't mix. I took so much chemistry, biology and physics in college because I enjoyed it that I was only two classes short of pre-med degree and didn't even realize it. I've forgotten a shit load of it over the last 8 years of utilizing my business degree, but there is one thing that I will never forget. I remember the day that I overheard a discussion between two people and one said that he put his faith in science, not God. I couldn't believe that I had just heard that. My faith was actually strengthened through studying science. I find it terribly difficult to believe that the existing elements on a planet would randomly come together to form molecules and cells that function in such a perfect manner. For life to then go from single celled organisms to multi-celled organisms and finally creatures that consist of organs and tissues that are made from different types of cells, without any guidance seems incredibly hard to believe if you don't believe that it was guided by a higher power. Just look at how complex the respiratory systems, reproductive systems and cardiovascular systems are, and then try to imagine that this all came together by chance. As for atheism, it doesn't bother me. You either have faith or you don't. You can't teach faith. You can't prove that there is or isn't a God. The only problem I ever have is when an athiest is offended by the word "God" or the possibility of a God. That leads me to believe that they aren't true athiests, but instead have a problem with God. I don't get offended by Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. I don't believe in either of them. Some people believe in a different God or even Gods. I don't verbally assault them for their beliefs or look down on them. I don't get offended when they talk about them. Their beliefs don't harm me, so why should I care? The only time I have a problem with anyone's beliefs are when their beliefs result in harmful actions towards others. Maybe that's why religions get a bad name. Some people use their beliefs to justify unjust actions. :(
MontysDoubleSalvaged from archive7 Sept 2007, 06:59
Religions have received a lot of flak from a lot of things that they've done, historically and currently. You could argue that the Roman Catholic's stance viz. condom use is contributing to the spread of HIV. Generally, inflexibility of church dogma and intolerance of non-adherents' practices such as homosexuality, extra- or non-marital sex and the like aren't helping groups to get along. I used to staunchly hold the view that religious teachings and practices should be abandoned as divisive and hopelessly conflated with historical atrocities. I now believe much more in simply live and let live. Doubtless many find that their religion offers them a moral framework to live within and comfort in association with likeminded others. Obviously religions can serve a far better purpose than merely being a facet of group identity that serves as a motivation to of justifier of xenophobia. Hopefully continued inter-faith dialogue will lead to a more tolerant, peaceful future for all; and who's to say that theocracies have no place in the modern world? The democratic capitalist god is merely money, after all...
Clouds in the SkySalvaged from archive7 Sept 2007, 07:32
Well, I'm not an atheist nor am I a believer... There is no concrete proof for either belief.
MontysDoubleSalvaged from archive7 Sept 2007, 08:00
There's a quote that Isaac Asimov paraphrased in one of the Foundation novels. I think this is the original: There are two ways to slide easily through life; to believe everything or to doubt everything. Both ways save us from thinking. Alfred Korzybski (1879 - 1950) What to believe? Given that there's a lot of things that have moved from the status of accepted lore to historical fact on the back of solid archaological evidence there's no easy answer. I'm agnostic. I think that to believe in an omniscient God is to anthropomorphise a natural process, and is unneccesary.
Snuff.Salvaged from archive7 Sept 2007, 10:26
I don't blame you for this stupidity. I do, however, blame the education system. Religious Affiliation of the Founding Fathers of the United States of America (http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html) :eek7: Adherents.com? Are you serious? I mean to make a statement like this: The signers of the Declaration of Independence were a profoundly intelligent, religious and ethically-minded group. with the piss-poor, spotty referencing that follows...well, you catch my drift. Just about everybody had religious affiliations back then and churches were central to the organisation and fabric of society. Martin Luther King was a preacher, but is that what he`s most remembered for? All this ignores the fact your constitution sets about a division of church and state. I believe there was at least one founding father who called religion a scourge and a heresy. I really am too lazy to look that one up, but I know it`s true. The United States were founded at a period when people were beginning to question religion and in particular to the New World adherence to European churches such as the CofE and the Vatican. You really are gonna have to do better if you want us to believe the people who laid the foundations for the most secular country in the world were devout Christians. Don`t mean to jump all over your shit, but I take umbrage with fundamentalists trying to rewrite history.
Snuff.Salvaged from archive7 Sept 2007, 10:33
Hopefully continued inter-faith dialogue will lead to a more tolerant, peaceful future for all; and who's to say that theocracies have no place in the modern world? The democratic capitalist god is merely money, after all... There are few bold enough to say that (the theocracy bit - the democracy bit can be universally accepted as truth, I feel) and I salute you for it. Looking around the world, I`m not yet ready to accept that there`s even the possibility of a theocratic state which I`d want to inhabit.
MightyTinySalvaged from archive7 Sept 2007, 11:04
Damn people, you shouldn't be resurrecting old good threads with respond-worthy posts when I don't have the time to respond! :sport-smiley-005: I'm going to a friend's cabin for tonight, and won't be back till tomorrow night. Nobody post anything smart or controversial while I'm away, ok? :xyxthumbs:
RhomphaiaSalvaged from archive7 Sept 2007, 11:18
Well, I'm not an atheist nor am I a believer... There is no concrete proof for either belief. I believe what you are trying to say is that you'e an agnostic. As for whether or not the founding fathers were religious or not...what the fuck does it matter? What matters is that they tried like hell to keep religion out of the order of government, even though by and large they all recognized the value of faith (not religion, two seperate things there). All in all, this country did pretty damn well without religion referenced in government, then the trouble started when they tried to inject it and got everyone turned against Christianity or religion in general.
footballbatSalvaged from archive7 Sept 2007, 11:48
All this ignores the fact your constitution sets about a division of church and state. I believe there was at least one founding father who called religion a scourge and a heresy. I really am too lazy to look that one up, but I know it`s true. The United States were founded at a period when people were beginning to question religion and in particular to the New World adherence to European churches such as the CofE and the Vatican. You really are gonna have to do better if you want us to believe the people who laid the foundations for the most secular country in the world were devout Christians. Don`t mean to jump all over your shit, but I take umbrage with fundamentalists trying to rewrite history. Amendment I Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. Nowhere in there does it mention 'separation of church and state'. All it says is that Congress can neither establish nor prohibit religion. The Constitution was ratified by the people of the 13 colonies, some of which had established state religions (Connecticut is the only one I can think of off-hand). the term 'separation of church and state', as used by Thomas Jefferson, appeared in a private letter he had written to the Association of Danbury Baptists, eleven years after the Ratification. He used the term to assure the Baptists that there would be no federally recognized 'state' religion. The complete discussions about the 1st Amendment are found in the Congressional Records from June 7 to to September 25, 1789. Nowhere in this record is the term 'separation of church and state' used. Where do the concepts that 'all men are created equal' and being 'endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights' come from? Certainly not the Greeks or Romans. I'm not saying that every Founding Father was a dyed in the wool Jesus freak, but to say that Judeo-Christian principles played no part in this countries founding, is ignoring history and facts.
ChebSalvaged from archive7 Sept 2007, 20:47
But it IS a sign that in the past your country was backwards and stupid and believed in pixy fairy mermaids in the sky. Anyone else notice the irony in this statement?
HeyBuddySalvaged from archive7 Sept 2007, 20:49
Anyone else notice the irony in this statement? mermaids in the sky?
ChebSalvaged from archive7 Sept 2007, 21:15
mermaids in the sky? uhm uhhh no :eek7:
Clouds in the SkySalvaged from archive7 Sept 2007, 22:46
I believe what you are trying to say is that you'e an agnostic. As for whether or not the founding fathers were religious or not...what the fuck does it matter? What matters is that they tried like hell to keep religion out of the order of government, even though by and large they all recognized the value of faith (not religion, two seperate things there). All in all, this country did pretty damn well without religion referenced in government, then the trouble started when they tried to inject it and got everyone turned against Christianity or religion in general. Thanks for stating the obvious.
RaidenatorSalvaged from archive7 Sept 2007, 23:36
I've read what others have said and I'm too lazy to quote it. Anyway, on our currency it says "In God We Trust" but does it specify a God? No, it just implies some God. It could be whatever God you want it to be. Hell you could even call it the God of Atheists in the sense that their beliefs take godship over their unbelief. In any case, it doesn't specify what religion and thusly does not put one before another. Do I make sense? Hell no. But I just got off work and I'm tired.
HeyBuddySalvaged from archive7 Sept 2007, 23:45
I've read what others have said and I'm too lazy to quote it. Anyway, on our currency it says "In God We Trust" but does it specify a God? No, it just implies some God. It could be whatever God you want it to be. Hell you could even call it the God of Atheists in the sense that their beliefs take godship over their unbelief. In any case, it doesn't specify what religion and thusly does not put one before another. Do I make sense? Hell no. But I just got off work and I'm tired. Just think. It could say, "In United Nations We Trust". Then, I'd be scared.
footballbatSalvaged from archive7 Sept 2007, 23:56
Just think. It could say, "In United Nations We Trust". Then, I'd be scared. Bring on the U.N.:smilie_flagge13: :sport-smiley-005: :smilie_flagge13: http://www.joebrower.com/PHILE_PILE/PIX/UN/UN_helmet-smal…
Josh85Salvaged from archive8 Sept 2007, 03:06
Jeez, old thread resurrected. Yeh my interweb is being weird lately I think it showed this thread as one of the recent ones I just didn't check the date of the last post. =/
MightyTinySalvaged from archive9 Sept 2007, 13:07
I find it terribly difficult to believe that the existing elements on a planet would randomly come together to form molecules and cells that function in such a perfect manner. For life to then go from single celled organisms to multi-celled organisms and finally creatures that consist of organs and tissues that are made from different types of cells, without any guidance seems incredibly hard to believe if you don't believe that it was guided by a higher power. Just look at how complex the respiratory systems, reproductive systems and cardiovascular systems are, and then try to imagine that this all came together by chance. *sigh* I can't imagine why the belief that naturalistic explanations invoke pure chance to explain complex structure seems so impossible to get rid of in the popular culture, even though it is so clearly, and self-evidently false. You should know better, having studied biology - NOBODY is claiming that complex design came about by "chance". Mutations are random. That's the only random thing in evolutionary theory. Mutations DO NOT produce new complex structure. They provide variation. Natural selection - which is a decidedly non-random process - is what guides the development of complex design, through pruning from the variation provided by mutation. So no, I do not have to imagine that any biological system came about by "chance" because nobody's claiming a silly thing like that. That's a gross misrepresentation of naturalistic explanations.
jabaSalvaged from archive9 Sept 2007, 14:13
Bring on the U.N.:smilie_flagge13: :sport-smiley-005: :smilie_flagge13: http://www.joebrower.com/PHILE_PILE/PIX/UN/UN_helmet-smal… post/image represents what I dislike about some attitudes. Regardless of origin or religion this is an organisation which has evolved to keep some semblance of peace in our world without being overly political or self-gratifying. Some people enjoy using the UN as a symbol of failure as do many politicians yet they fail to see why the organisation exists in the first place - to keep nations safe in a world of greed and revenge. The image shows a helmet with quite a few bullet holes in it which have probably been created by a prick with a can of blue spray and firing a handgun at close range just to make a lame point.
Big OzzieSalvaged from archive9 Sept 2007, 14:42
This post/image represents what I dislike about some attitudes. Regardless of origin or religion this is an organisation which has evolved to keep some semblance of peace in our world without being overly political or self-gratifying. Some people enjoy using the UN as a symbol of failure as do many politicians yet they fail to see why the organisation exists in the first place - to keep nations safe in a world of greed and revenge. The image shows a helmet with quite a few bullet holes in it which have probably been created by a prick with a can of blue spray and firing a handgun at close range just to make a lame point. U.N. = FileCabi Mods? http://www.smilies.4-user.de/include/Grosse/smilie_gr_179…
Big OzzieSalvaged from archive9 Sept 2007, 14:48
As far as the Poll is concerned, I will publicly state that I am NOT an Atheist. How could I be? Many of you have stated that I think that I am a GOD! :1orglaugh: Pray to Me, Tools! http://hometown.aol.com/bigskydawn/images/jesus_kneeling_… hahahahaha:1orglaugh: :1orglaugh:
crazee horseSalvaged from archive9 Sept 2007, 14:49
me? hell no! its all propaganda.
AxisSalvaged from archive9 Sept 2007, 20:16
Blame Charles Darwin. I don't believe God exists at all. I respct people in their decision to beg to someone nonexistant, but i just choose to believe in logic and common sense.
MightyTinySalvaged from archive9 Sept 2007, 20:42
I don't believe God exists at all. I respct people in their decision to beg to someone nonexistant, but i just choose to believe in logic and common sense. This language implying that belief is a choice is ubiquitously used, yet, it seems to me that it's trivially false - we do not choose what we believe. At least I don't, and everyone who I've challenged to think about it a moment, has likewise concluded that no, belief isn't really a choice. I mean think about it: not believing in God, do you have the option to suddenly start to believe, upon a decision to do so? Could you, for example, for an experiment, start to believe in god, and genuinely believe in the existence of a deity, for, say, the next ten minutes, and then switch back to atheism? Of course not. No more than a theist can suddenly choose to stop believing in god. We are persuaded by evidence, by our experiences, by what we've read, by the discussions we've had, by the way in which we have learned to evaluate evidence, to form beliefs of one sort or another; choice doesn't really play much of a part, except in choosing whether to expose our beliefs to challenges, whether to take the risk (if we consider it a risk) that new evidence we encounter may change our beliefs. Whether to make an effort in judging new evidence open mindedly with the acknowledgement that "I am not infallible, and so whatever I may believe may be false", or whether you choose to treat your belief as a truth that needs to be protected from exposure to other ideas. In the actual change of belief, from one system to another, conscious choice does not play any major role. So I'd like to see the eradication of the use of such phrases as "you can choose to believe whatever you want" - you can't; any more than you can choose to fly by flapping your arms. Freedom of belief means that you will not be sanctioned against for believing whatever you believe, it does not mean that you are ABLE to start to believe differently than you do, on a conscious choice.
Snuff.Salvaged from archive9 Sept 2007, 21:07
Apologies - totally missed this post! Nowhere in there does it mention 'separation of church and state'. All it says is that Congress can neither establish nor prohibit religion. The Constitution was ratified by the people of the 13 colonies, some of which had established state religions (Connecticut is the only one I can think of off-hand). the term 'separation of church and state', as used by Thomas Jefferson, appeared in a private letter he had written to the Association of Danbury Baptists, eleven years after the Ratification. He used the term to assure the Baptists that there would be no federally recognized 'state' religion. The complete discussions about the 1st Amendment are found in the Congressional Records from June 7 to to September 25, 1789. Nowhere in this record is the term 'separation of church and state' used. I admit I posted with some trepidation - my knowledge of American history is piss-poor! Thanks for clarifying! ...And being nice about it. :D Where do the concepts that 'all men are created equal' and being 'endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights' come from? Certainly not the Greeks or Romans. Well, actually yes. As I understand it, in coming out of the medieval period we turned back to the classics and have pretty much continued in this veign ever since. It`s true that many contemporaneous thinkers were religious, but they (as in the case of Descartes) used this rediscovered logic to justify their religious beliefs. I'm not saying that every Founding Father was a dyed in the wool Jesus freak, but to say that Judeo-Christian principles played no part in this countries founding, is ignoring history and facts. I feel that the Judaeo-Christian principles you speak of were propagated by the King James version of the Bible. This was a translation of the Bible which allowed theologists a new spectrum in which to hypothecate. Of course, the mood of the times was included in this 'reinterpretation' and the mood of the times is colloquially referred to as the Enlightenment. Consequently, I feel that your interpretation places too much emphasis on the Church. Specifically, though, my grievance was with your source.
HeyBuddySalvaged from archive9 Sept 2007, 21:37
MT- I think you are right on. I couldn't be a non-believer if I tried. It's a part of who I am.
jabaSalvaged from archive9 Sept 2007, 21:51
Respect here to anyone who needs a god. I don't want or need a god so you should also respect a differing opinion when confronted with it and get on with life.
Snuff.Salvaged from archive9 Sept 2007, 21:53
This is intriguing. I remember reading about a "God gene" ...Lemme find a reference. *rummages* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_gene I know you religious dudes won`t necessarily like it being reduced like that. ...But you gotta think. ;)
MontysDoubleSalvaged from archive9 Sept 2007, 23:08
This post/image represents what I dislike about some attitudes. Regardless of origin or religion this is an organisation which has evolved to keep some semblance of peace in our world without being overly political or self-gratifying. Some people enjoy using the UN as a symbol of failure as do many politicians yet they fail to see why the organisation exists in the first place - to keep nations safe in a world of greed and revenge. The image shows a helmet with quite a few bullet holes in it which have probably been created by a prick with a can of blue spray and firing a handgun at close range just to make a lame point.I agree 100%.
brownbearclanSalvaged from archive9 Sept 2007, 23:15
I think their needs to be a third option that says something like, "unsure, need to do more research" or something. I know a lot of people out there are still on the fence on this subject.
Big OzzieSalvaged from archive9 Sept 2007, 23:58
MT- I think you are right on. I couldn't be a non-believer if I tried. It's a part of who I am. Same here, Buddy....same here. Respect here to anyone who needs a god. I don't want or need a god so you should also respect a differing opinion when confronted with it and get on with life. It is not a question of needing, Jaba. When one truly believes in a Deity or supreme being, there is no explanation as to why, they just know that they do. I would not dare to argue with your beliefs or lack of. Nor would I argue that a Christian is right and a Jew, a Muslim or a Buddhist is wrong. Each person either has the belief in them or they do not. No amount of "Bible Thumping" will convince a person that God is the answer if they did not know in their Heart that he was. This is why I refuse to engage in these arguments, either on the Internet or at the local Pub. If someone wants to know how I feel or what I think and believe in...I will share my thoughts. But I will not go door to door or person to person and bother them with my beliefs or lack of unless they ask me to.
Big OzzieSalvaged from archive10 Sept 2007, 00:13
To Mighty Tiny and Snufftelect.... You guys post some good arguments for what you believe or do not believe in..... but sometime your posts just give me a HEADACHE! http://www.verkkouutiset.fi/gif/HEADACHE.GIF
HeyBuddySalvaged from archive10 Sept 2007, 00:27
I think their needs to be a third option that says something like, "unsure, need to do more research" or something. I know a lot of people out there are still on the fence on this subject. I might be wrong, but I think that is an agnostic.
brownbearclanSalvaged from archive10 Sept 2007, 22:44
I might be wrong, but I think that is an agnostic. Could be, that's basically "I don't/won't believe in anything without proof" right? I'm not entirely sure what I believe in though. I believe in science and evolution, but I also believe in the afterlife and spiritual/earth energies. Throw life on other planets in there and there's my skewed view on the universe lol.
HeyBuddySalvaged from archive11 Sept 2007, 02:52
Could be, that's basically "I don't/won't believe in anything without proof" right? I'm not entirely sure what I believe in though. I believe in science and evolution, but I also believe in the afterlife and spiritual/earth energies. Throw life on other planets in there and there's my skewed view on the universe lol. What makes that any more skewed than any other "belief"?
MontysDoubleSalvaged from archive11 Sept 2007, 04:03
Believe in what you will, but the scientific method is not based on belief but on observation, hypothesis, experiment and and logic.

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